The Law

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
magus
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:53 pm

The Law

Post by magus » Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:01 pm

The law is what holds society together, if it applied inconsistently based on what you feel about a person than we become no better than trollocs.

Many do not like me, I am not asking you to treat me equally to anyone else. By all means make all the laws you wish that anyone can hunt me or anyone associated with me within your borders. But I AM demanding that whatever your laws are, you follow them, or you will be named a traitor to your own state, and I will treat you accordingly.

OOC:
one month ago, I was attacked by a green aes sedai in EF, chased into bandar eban and slain.

The justification: tower warrant earned when Suern, a known troublemaker warranted by the tower who literally has a thread on Tar Valon discussion board titled "Suern Not to be Trusted", engaged me then waited 15 mins for no quit to be gone logged off, and 5 mins later a red sedai logged on to warrant justifying it with Suern's log.

The result: I was banished from bandar eban with the same punishment as the aggressor, despite not attacking or channeling, for "bringing conflict to the throne room while fleeing pursuit and thereby endangering the life of the King" (since aes sedai are well known for killing monarchs when pursuing other targets). The Red Eagles read the report of their ally getting attacked in Emonds Field and chose not to do anything about it despite their laws also demanding that the aggressor be warranted.

By all means, simplify your laws. Give the Aes Sedai carte blanche to pursue who they wish in your borders at their whim. BUT UNTIL YOU DO, if your laws state that an innocent is protected then quit playing favorites and protect them until they are proven not innocent. This goes for all nations, if you dont wish to actually go through your laws and understand all the intricacies of them then just simplify them. By having multiple page laws you are signing up to enforce them at that degree of precision.

Even more OOC:
please dont take any this personally. Magus's RP is meant to be super abrasive, and the reasoning behind making him that way was to force certain aspects into the spotlight. One very looming trend I have noticed that is extremely pervasive at the moment is favoritism especially with regards to enforcing laws and punsihments.

If you dont think this is favoritism keep in mind that my very first 2 interactions were 1) to get backstabbed to see if I was a male channeler and 2) to get hunted based on heresay and punished for being murdered. the aggresor in this case got a 2 week banishment. Compare that to someone like Arjuna (not affiliated through me just watched on the sidelines and inspired me to make this character and address the issues) flip a ctf at a time when same side ctf's were getting flipped 10x a day. His punishment? monetary compensation, lengthy RP interactions ( viewtopic.php?f=79&t=15060 ) demotion, 42 qps loss, the requirement of killing 8 certain DS smobs as well as every mob in blodfest and across like 10 zones. If you dont see a disconnect there then I will pray for sanity, it is certainly enough to move ME into action.

Prykor
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:56 pm

Re: The Law

Post by Prykor » Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:23 pm

It looks like multiple issues here... Let's try to separate them.

First, the tower taking info from a deservedly warrented MC/darkfriend/murderer as truth. There's probably more to this, but the broad strokes are clearly showing the situation to be a bit of horse dung.
If I post logs of red ajah and gaidin fighting side by side of known MC's, weaving and channeling in same room (even using cure wounds on each other)... how much sense does it make to trust a shadowspawn and give punishment in an IC way? That said, when it happens relatively often, and nobody ever seems to do anything about it or change their ways.... it starts to get stupid.
The RP aspects getting thrown aside in favor of stronger PK, or 'holding off' or pausing RP when anything seeming like PK is going to happen.... is a larger discussion in and of itself, so I'll move on for now.

Second, the "he said" vs "she said" piece of of the Red Eagle's argument. There really isn't anything wrong with "we don't want to take sides in this, but we want you other groups to keep your conflicts out of our lands" approach, but as you said...that needs to be consistently enforced.
That said, I don't recall anywhere saying that you are innocent until proven otherwise, and without a direct Red Eagle witness it certainly makes things murky. That said, when it is quite clear that only one party's side of the events was bothered with and accepted as truth, it does seem quite unfair. Outside of the imms/watchers, there really isn't anything written in stone where the clans approached NEED to be fair, but that only goes so far before it is abused... certainly a fine line, though an abrasively RP'd character should expect that all things considered, they would be treated less than fair in situations where tact, humility, and general personability may have woo'd the judge toward your side.

Third, punishments can be tricky. More experienced, higher ranked, etc. players have much higher expectations for following the rules, and much harsher punishments for breaking them -- note that i said player, not character. When it comes to the player run councils and what have you, things get quite murky quite fast with how much information is allowed to be shared (not to say that OOC influences weren't there, but that just adds another layer of complexity here).

Bam
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:20 pm

Re: The Law

Post by Bam » Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:56 pm

Suern may as well be a tower member for the massive protection by people with no integrity on their tower characters.

Good luck.

Kordin
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:17 pm

Re: The Law

Post by Kordin » Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:24 am

Prykor wrote:
Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:23 pm

The RP aspects getting thrown aside in favor of stronger PK, or 'holding off' or pausing RP when anything seeming like PK is going to happen.... is a larger discussion in and of itself, so I'll move on for now.
RP, "bookish" and any other similar buzzword/excuse/logic/whatever was always kicked aside in favor for PK or something labeled as PK but barely anything to do with PK. This game always had a hilariously selective way of being RP/by the books one day, and then pure PK/throw the books out the window the next day.

How is a log, in which neither side giving warrants was involved in, IC info? Are logs some Age of Legends equivalent to Instagram videos?

People then have to dance around this fact, because it's impossible to RP that in any way that makes sense and is properly IC based on IC info...so you end up with something that's a punishment but not severe enough so this BS gets repeated over an over - "mobs saw you fight at the King, King was in "danger" and you're both banished".

iria
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:35 pm

Re: The Law

Post by iria » Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:47 am

I think it is only natural that RP has to give way, in some respect, for gameplay , seeing as this is a game. Logs are the best accounts we have of witnessing what happened, so you'll often have to base your IC actions on those accounts. That said, if a trolloc posts a log of X Sedai getting healed by Y MC, then nothing is going to happen. I'd recommend if you see something akin to this on your LS character, mail the Tower with a log of it and a penance will likely be set, or I'd assume so.

As to Pking alongside MCs, I think it is largely agreed upon that DS>SS/MC>wanteds as to who to attack first, as long as you aren't grouping with wanteds/mcs. Unless your characters RP is different, like an overzealous *oL or a Red Ajah might want to deal with the madman first, but I think for the larger part you'll see people go for the trollocs first. Which of course skews the narrative a bit when MCs pk up north and disappear when the DS disappear. You won't really see them being hunted up North, I think also in large part because people up there aren't out to hunt MCs, but are there for the crossrace PK and once that ends they head south. I imagine the MCs/SS who do venture up north are still not allowed inside the cities and will be asked to leave if they do come in else they'll be attacked.

As to nations and their laws, it is up to the different nations to govern as they see fit, and this is only from my experience, but it seems to me the Dragonsworn clan has muddied the waters a bit concerning MCs. Where in older days, people would gladly take the Towers word that Y is an MC and therefore should be hunted everywhere, I think perhaps people don't want to deal with the headache of having to deal with a whole clan and whatever situation may arise if they give warrants to their members. Could be that before the Dragonsworn accepted Known MCs, the only Knowns were generally murderers so it was easy enough to just give them a warrant, but now people play the "good guy" MC and so the Tower's word is not good enough to warrant on.
Or it could just be that as we've all grown older and more relaxed, the stringent warranting of MCs has been relaxed a bit.

Draz
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:14 pm

Re: The Law

Post by Draz » Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:05 am

Hey so I’ve seen (and occasionally been involved with) tons of this crap recently.

I think tower members should follow and are bound to follow the law of the nations they are representing the tower in; hunting you down in the wilderness is one thing; hot pursuit of a critical opponent maybe; even wilfully choosing to set those laws aside for a known murderer.

Not so much if it’s in the wilderness, or there are no witnesses; but in a throne room? Inside a city in front of the guards there?

Personally I’ve been advised not to use Alts evidence for any RP interaction, partly because I have shitty history with it. And despite my justifications that it’s entirely possible for Draz to have received a report about a dangerous individual. The punishment listed was up to and including Declanning of my master characters. So *shrug* do with that as you will.

If one sedai knows it happened you should be able to set up a situation where she’s asked to confirm it, and with proof the original sedai is then questioned: she can make whatever justification she wants but will almost definitely be punished for breaking the law (by the tower, as a representative of the tower, rather than whatever chortlesnorfling clan won’t mess with the tower).

As far as I know:
Red eagles specifically state not to bring conflict into their zones; and include to that not to run and seek shelter in their zones. If you had been there for any amount of time they don’t have a leg to stand on.

Cairhien are specific that none is to hunt in their zones regardless of even hot pursuit, channeler, or even if the opponent is warranted in cairhien:

Tear I honestly don’t remember. Aside from the law is the law and even if you save a defender channeling in tear you’re still going to get warranted:

Fal Dara you’re wrong mcs actively pking dark are occasionally tolerated in Fal Dara for brief periods but it’s not common for more than that. I gather any ranking borderguard can choose to prioritise an Mc over the dark, I highly doubt they would quibble at sedai or gaidin declaring an Mc as a known channeling murderer and hunting them in preference to the dark.

I think there should be consideration that it’s a game and this dung shouldn’t be permanent either; by all means if the guy who murdered previously gets a pardon you can flag him ready to rewarrant but literally hundreds of years of game time and people get perma fucked while others who murdered for years get off with a slap on the wrist. It’s chortlesnorfling wrong

Sarinda
Posts: 687
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:10 pm
Location: Kalamazoo, MI

Re: The Law

Post by Sarinda » Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:17 am

One thing I would very much like to see on the forums is a place where all of the various nations' laws are published, stickied, and regularly maintained. I was able to search Tales of Light and find postings of laws from most but not all of the justice organizations. However, at least one (Andor) was missing, and some (including Tar Valon) were published back in 2016 so could possibly be outdated. None of them were stickied.

iria
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:35 pm

Re: The Law

Post by iria » Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:29 am

Draz wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:05 am


Personally I’ve been advised not to use Alts evidence for any RP interaction, partly because I have shitty history with it. And despite my justifications that it’s entirely possible for Draz to have received a report about a dangerous individual. The punishment listed was up to and including Declanning of my master characters. So *shrug* do with that as you will.
I'd imagine this would be common knowledge for most. If your alt is in an altercation or any other situation, getting clanned etc. you should refrain from posting in any way on your other characters. If you feel the need to post, perhaps just say "I can get a letter to X, if you wish to discuss the Y in person with X" and leave it at that. Otherwise it muddies the waters way too much with OOC info for an IC situation.

jafra
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:25 pm

Re: The Law

Post by jafra » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:55 am

Suern ... engaged me then waited 15 mins for no quit to be gone logged off, and 5 mins later a red sedai logged on to warrant justifying it with Suern's log.
To me this is the shittiest part of the post. Are the implications here true? -- pretty despicable if it is.

Stomp
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:25 am

Re: The Law

Post by Stomp » Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:03 am

jafra wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:55 am
Suern ... engaged me then waited 15 mins for no quit to be gone logged off, and 5 mins later a red sedai logged on to warrant justifying it with Suern's log.
To me this is the shittiest part of the post. Are the implications here true? -- pretty despicable if it is.
I am also TV wanted bc suern logged on to their red ajah alt and gave me a warrant

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