North PK related changes

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Ragyn
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:50 am

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Ragyn » Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:14 pm

Zarth wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:50 pm
I think Davor is just mad that his best way of getting kills has been made less feasible. If Jestin doesn't play he might not be able to get another kill ever again.

In my opinion Kajin very rarely enabled enjoyable PK for me. I'm sure that it was enjoyable for high defense low fleelag humans to flee around constantly, but it was not for me and I'd argue any other trolloc abser. Let's consider the 4v1 case where the 1 is a high defense character. Recall that the goal is to get kills and not just to deal damage. How do the 4 go about getting a kill on the 1? Let's just say they hit Kajin with all 4 of them, what happens? The 1 instantly flees before a bash and probably takes 0 damage. Now all of the mobs are engaged so they 1 can return and deal free damage. If the 4 flee off there's a good chance that 1) they'll flee slower becaues of fleelag and 2) the last one to flee will get all the mobs on him for a round and get wrecked. If they flee off they have to try to hit again before they get aggroed by the other mobs. While those mobs may seem weak against defense player I can assure you they don't feel weak as an abser. Especially with the quick aggro on the sergeant mobs!

So this goes on for a while, the 1 flees off and gets free hits in, while the 4 keep trying to get on to roll and land a bash. Let's say they finally land one, if they're lucky they get a few hits in, but most likely autoflee kicks in. Now the 1 actually feels in danger so they want to leave. Well you don't have any blockers because you hit with all 4. They run the 10 rooms into FD. So fine, you set a blocker 2n, now you're only hitting with 3 and the 1 can just leave via burnt. So you block 2n 2e and burnt. Now you're hitting with 2 and the 1 doesn't even have to leave he can just whittle down his opponents.

The issue that I see with Kajin, Treesinger, Lockshear, and other areas are stark when it's high numbers of absers vs 1 or 2 high defense low fleelag characters. The issue is not particularly that it's unbalanced in either way, there are a ton of situations that are unbalanced. If a solo absers hits a smob group he's going to get wrecked, that's fine and nobody complains about it. The issue with these situations is that both sides have vastly different perspectives on the risks, so it ends up just causing negativity. The high defense low fleelag character looks at it and says, "it's 4v1! I am taking all the risk! You should be hitting!". The absers look at it and say, "Even if we hit you you're just going to flee and whittle us down, if we get lucky to land a bash you're going to autoflee! If you ever get close to actually dying you're just going to leave and we can't block you! We're not going to hit!" This causes both sides to be pissed off.

The exact thing happened a few days ago in stedding. Castien (full dodge) was TS, it was Foil (combo heron), Drull (abs), Nazrgun (abs). When I showed up (3 absers now) Foil and the other trollocs had moved to the new sted patty because the trollocs were crit. Castien was wounded and yelling at Foil for going to mobs. I walked in and engaged, Castien immediately moved to Treesinger. I then hit with Foil for a few minutes. I got 1 unbashed hit but was never able to finish a bash timer before Castien fled. Foil finished 2 timers, he landed 1 and we got maybe 2 hits off of it as I autofled Castien when I entered (he was batt). I lost about 150 hps doing this and decided to leave. It was especially bad in that situation because Castien is full dodge and dismounted so unbashed we could only get 2 attackers on him. I'm sure it felt to him that he was taking all of the risk because he was fighting a bunch of high damage weapons, but to us it felt like he had very little risk as he'd just keep fleeing and if he ever got beaten or crit he could just leave through either of the 2 exits. I left and then the rest did too. All the pk did was piss everyone off which could be seen in discord a few minutes later!

Now, is there an alternative? I don't know, I think a key has to be players realizing that sometimes the situation just doesn't allow for good pk. If that happens then I think you have to leave. All staying around is going to do is get you mad. I think an interesting change would be to have Kajin be mobile, but change campsite area to be 3x3 with like 3-4 sergeants/soldiers and set 2n2e5n to be the nomob. This leaves some more space there, allows Kajin to roam around a bit, but you only need 1 to block now (though it's not a terrible block for either side as it's 50/50).

I also think that there should be a collection of mob only weapons with extremely high ob and low damage and that don't chortlesnorfling pierce.
What stands out to me here is, why would you go sit with a patrol or mobs if it is 4v1. You've now created the incentive for Castien to chase off from his patrol, but he probably isn't going to go hit you solo at a patrol. Heron wielding fade should shred dodge and you've created the incentive for him to move, to maybe try to kill one of the low absers or use weaker mobs, wolves for example.

Had a similar experience the other day in stedding. 4v5 favoring DS, but we ended up getting a few of them low using mobs and them not regrouping faster together. Then they went and sat with a patrol blight. It seems like a wasted opportunity. You've created the opportunity for the outnumbered group to hit you without mobs, one person is going to get two people on them, so if the other group members don't win their fights fast, well now that one person is going to be taking a lot of damage fast and you now have the opportunity to chase down the last fella to flee.
PK is all bout creating incentives for the other side to hit you at a disadvantaged spot, but if you don't wave that carrot in front of their face why should they hit you. It probably relates to Mikhan or Eol's point of people using mobs "wrong" in lack of a better word.

Kajin PK is usually used to get some of the trollocs low, maybe catch one trying to regroup and then often it moves to sergeants as DS has now created an incentive for LS to try to make a stand at lesser mobs, despite being outnumbered, because there is a chance of a kill now. If there is no chance of a kill, but all the chances of dying, there isn't much point to it.

Davor
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Davor » Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:32 pm

Castien is also a poor example. He likely has the best gear on the game. Is a Wolfbrother so not a single malus of being dismounted in the heart of DS territory. In addition to being a fairly skilled player. I'm sure there were opportunities to win given you had a fade with a heron and 3 others. If he chased some of your low trollocs - which knowing Castien - im sure he did, one bash and serk from Foil and he will likely go into the Ouch thread. Every dodger has been featured there. I would say its not uncommon and all these 1v4 situations are actually quite rare.

I would say my success on DS hitting Kajin with more numbers far exceeds my success on Matheus/Davor fighting outnumbered at Kajin. Especially in the 1v4 category. They make for neat logs I can occasionally pull off but the majority of times just ends with me dead or sitting crit in FD.

Zarth
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:04 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Zarth » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:04 pm

Castien can't stand up to that group without ls mobs. In that situation there is actually no difference to sitting at ds mobs (and possibly an advantage to Castien). If it's just Castien around either the mobs will not engage (because of max engage) or they will actually keep someone with a real weapon from engaging! Mobs help you because if a group shows up you're not stuck, and you might get lucky and they aggro before you get hit (as abs). Now it may feel like a big difference, but in practice it's not. When I showed up he immediately went back to mobs. Again, this is the right thing for him to do! The situation is such that neither side has good options.

How low were the trollocs compared to you? Were they abs? Were you combo? How much fleelag did they have? How were their moves? All of these are probably why they went to a patrol instead of standing still. Did they actually have a chance to win in a standup fight or was it something like 4v5 where the 4 were hurt/scratched, 2 of the 5 were beat and the other 3 were wounded? I could be wrong and I'd be interested to see a log, but most of the time when people complain about others ruining PK by sitting at mobs their rationale doesn't really hold up beyond "I wanted you to stay so I could kill you".

I have not had that experience with Kajin PK. Instead what I generally see is 1 of 4 things:
1) DS Gets completely overwhelming numbers to destroy
2) LS has absers Kajin. DS hits and destroys the absers. Combo/dodgers leave
3) DS hits Kajin, LS flees around, DS gets low and try to regroup around dusty. LS might change to sergeants if they narrate and use them to buff, but once the group hits LS is back to Kajin. LS/super aggro mobs eat any abser slow to flee or who gets caught in a chokey flee area.
4) DS refuses to hit Kajin and leaves.

If more trollocs were combo or dodge or more ls was abs this would change of course, but with the way things are I don't see that happening.

There is some validity in hitting to get yourself low to try to get the other side comfortable enough to move off of their support, but I just think that with the way things have gone the difference between doing that and suiciding is too small.

Foil
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Foil » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:20 pm

Kinda in the same vein but kinda of not like a hybrid idea. I have been saying for awhile it's hard to balance mob support when the two sides are fundamentally different in two regards. Flee lag and viable pk set up options. I think balancing mob support would be somewhat easier if we clased the gap on flee lag difference on trolls vs humans. Also increase troll pracs to make more combo options viable. This maybe an not a good idea, I don't know. I'd like to hear others input on it.

Castien
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:13 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Castien » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:47 pm

Ragyn wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:14 pm
What stands out to me here is, why would you go sit with a patrol or mobs if it is 4v1. You've now created the incentive for Castien to chase off from his patrol, but he probably isn't going to go hit you solo at a patrol. Heron wielding fade should shred dodge and you've created the incentive for him to move, to maybe try to kill one of the low absers or use weaker mobs, wolves for example.
That was my gripe. Zarth forgets to include the weapons the abs trollocs were using. Heron greatsword, Hooked swords, + whatever Zarth was using.

These are all high damage, high OB weapons. I watched a couple of them quaff strength teas. Now I can assume besides the fade, they're all 21 strength, probably pulling 190+ OB at least, with weapons that do far more damage. So, after going to TS after going from wounded to beaten in 4 unbashed hits near blight, I used mobs for a bit, got some of the trollocs and fade low.

The immediate reaction to one of them being in any minimal amount of danger (crit 4v1) wasn't to sit TS ent, or 1n TS ent at the shiverings, but to go straight to the new plethora of trolloc mobs near rottendoor. On top of complaints about having no flee-lag (I have 14 wil, I was definitely fleelagged) and that they had to use mobs. It was pretty frustrating because my initial plan was to get them low and then move off to lower mobs to, I know shocker, entice pk. Lower mobs being: stedding wolves/ancient trees/ogier mobs around ftrail.

As Davor said, the possibility of just ending up on the OUCH thread was definitely high, but I get enjoyment from taking some form of risk in pk and to have somewhat of a good experience for both parties involved. There's a huge difference between maybe having someone who isn't crit spam and engage me before I get on the low trolloc, without the use of mobs. Mostly because those are tactics you can use without, again shocker, mob support when you outnumber the opponent.

/rant

Thanks Feneon, really enjoying the changes and hard work you've been doing. Also love the fact that you're taking time to address feedback and concerns with an explanation as to your thinking and how you expect things to go from said thinking.

Foil
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Foil » Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:09 am

I read Zarth's post as a description of his involvement in PK, not a personal attack on you or the way you pk. He has valid points and you also have some valid points. I'm sure things can be discussed without the need to defend ones self. Simply sharing experiences better helps to design game decisions that appeals to players on a wide variety of the spectrum. Everyone has been pretty helpful and rather cordial in the thread let's try to keep the ranting to a minimum.

I can see your point Castien, yes in a perfect world you want to use mob support to level the playing field, to bring your opponent into a killable range and then you can leave it. The issue I had in the particular case you have decided to elaborate on is, the trolls weren't particularly fond of the scenario. Yes you can sit TS ent at the no mob and hope you come in to try and finish the troll and I get a bash that ends you. However, when I am unsure of the mindset of those following me, the level of panic or distress, their level of pk ability. It seemed to me they didn't have the best grasp on how to deal with what was going on and were fixing to get themselves killed, so instead of give you the kill I chose to remove them from PK and decide what to do. That is unfortunately the leaders responsibility sometimes. It isn't my job to make sure my opponent has a good time. I can understand why it's frustrating for you but constantly complaining when someone doesn't play the game like you think they should doesn't really help anything.

Not going to take away from your point though, it is a very good play and yes it can lead to extended pk.

Castien
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:13 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Castien » Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:46 am

Yea I read his post the same way. I wasn’t defending myself or the way I pk. Simply elaborated the situation from my own pov which gives insight to both sides of the playing field.

Anywho, this thread has actually been good and exciting and for a change, helpful and quite cordial. Thank you.

Feneon
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:02 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Feneon » Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:49 pm

MOB VERSATILITY:

DETRITUS:
Is antistab code(like ragan/lockshear commander) attatched to room or mob?
I didn't think of it, if it has to be tagged in room not on mob then my idea of swapping Kajin with blands patrol is prob a terrible one.

Kajin minions could easily just change what weapon they're using to adjust damage output without needing to nerf levels or dismount them.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread: often, a lot of the adjustments that seem good for overall game experience are removed because of individuals taking advantage of it. The patrol winding has regularly been split because thieves stab the leader mob and then leave the rest and they are set to be stationary. Now the mobs that are left will stay where they are and the Elite will load with a second group of soldiers that could potentially group up.

In the past when I have given commander the ability to wander it has led to a similar situation where his mobs end up split considerably. I may put anti-stab mobol on commy and give it the opportunity to

I think the damage on Kajin and his mobs weapons is good. I have matched Treesinger's ogier to that.


FD COMPARISON:
DAVOR:
Feneon - I don't understand you comparing old Kajin to Fal Dara. That is not even a comparison? Beyond locking gates...the entire city being a choke zone..most trollocs not having enough pick leaving only 2 out of 4 exits viable..multiple doors, multiple non-pkers/support players suddenly jumping in...not to mention the 100x number of mobs? I don't understand why that comparison is even being entertained. Ruined keep gets hit more because it is significantly more open. Plus, LS over the last few years have become less of pussies compared to DS - despite DS gaining an insane amounts of re-morts and bonuses, mostly rogues.

Fair point and me mentioning Fal Dara was not useful to you. I meant even in Fal Dara you had more options and a slower experience of getting low than you did at Kajin (obviously if you don't include gate defenses).


RNG:
MIKHAN:
The random number generator that determines everything from how much damage is done to whether a bash misses or lands did "more work than you did getting a kill or dying?" Well, sure, I guess I see what you mean. The RNG is always an essential part of any kill or death in this game. It seems that what you're saying is that if a fight takes place at a patty and the patty deals more damage than a player, RNG "does more work" than the player, and this is presumably bad for the state of PK and calls for a change.

But isn't this a kind of silly way to look at the game? When you bash, the RNG is engaged because you chose to bash. For the damage roll on your weapon, same deal. When using mob support, the RNG that determines whether a mob hits a player, or whether a player hits another player with their defense split, etc. -- the same. When ancient trees turn a fight, you can look at it as "RNG did more work than you" or you can look at it that the RNG on those ancient trees is an aspect of the game, just like the RNG on the weapon you're wielding -- RNG is not a player; it is a medium through which the players interact. I guess, in short, I could agree with a statement that says Kajin does more damage than any solo player at Kajin -- but not with a statement that says in such a situation, RNG does all the work. Quite the opposite, I think.
ERULAK:Also, the "control" argument and the 4 v 1 situation thing is just bizarre, if I'm being honest. The whole point of going to a patrol is to have some sort of control you don't typically have in 4 v 1 situations, and even then, it's entirely up to the 4 whether or not PK continues in that situation.

To clarify, I meant that if I am in full dodge fighting at Kajin, all I need is to track who Kajin is engaging. I can use diagnose to watch their hit points and I can spam for them. The others would be trying to engage me. I don't need to stand in a room and let bashes miss or hit, I just need to get Kajin to aggro with me and then flee, while avoiding no-mobs, to aggro in another room. When any of those opponents got critical I could then target them and chase them down, or just attack the remaining opponents. That feels significantly different because of the consistency of damage and the amount of mobs. In the situation with two trees they will not do damage and I will build up fleelag trying to get them to engage. Two trees would still be a weak example in a 1v1.

If Kajin is strong enough for an individual to stand and fight against four then it is likely too strong. Not because we want to limit individual play, but because in group play these same groups default to patrols and Dusty is the last stand. In the past this has meant that you have two groups, one burnt, and one kajin, arguing over who is in a better position to hit. Often this arguing led to increasing toxicity between players, and since our community is small, that toxicity stacked into targeting and grudges. After 20 years playing this game we all have a lot of grudges and having PK environments that actively enable that while not promoting dynamic combat is problematic because when PK isn't happening we default to the social aspects. For those of you who remember the emergence of Seanchan PK, there are inherent complications that come from being able to understand your enemy. This is now even more true in the north with the amount of remorts around and they are willing to echo what communication is taking place cross-race.



STATIONARY:
RAGYN:
Seems like a very narrow way of looking at PK. Even if the patrol does most of the damage, it is the player that has set it up by various means, be it target bashing the correct names, splitting up the group to allow for the kill on a low player, guiding the group around and so on. To me it would be better to change the weapons of the mobs at Kajin if you want it downed, but if you want it to be stationary could it at least be in a better spot. NE campsite has always been the worst place for it to be, even when it was roaming. Could be with the opening up of pittrap area that it isn't as terrible now, but I'd much rather see kajin placed 1e of the nomob or at campsite itself or anywhere that isn't so easily blocked up. Kajin is usually used when humans are already heavily outnumbered or too low to use sergeants, having the mob support in an easily blocked position will likely just lead to people going in earlier, similar to how DS often ignores camp and heads straight north or how TS was usually ignored by LS - great changes there though, adding treedoor makes it seem less of a DT for both sides if reinforcements suddenly show up.
ERULAK:
I think Kajin does need some element of movement and "rescuing an engagement" to be effective -- I would consider seeing how some sort of limited wandering works with the added escape route/circling option in the zone that's in right now.

These are fair points and movement is generally good, but hunting is not what we want from this mob. I've put in something that should work to have Kajin walk around the four campsite rooms periodically, but other than that he won't be chasing. This will include some randomness to his movements, but it will be tied to mobol pulse and at a relatively low percentage for now. That randomness will also mean that he stalls in different rooms. Remember, this whole area is now scannable.

This, along with removing the no mob from where he was, should allow for sergeants to stack and chase while giving some level of surprise from Kajin. Overall, I am appreciative that a lot of players have tried to use Kajin even if they felt that it is not viable, and we are happy that rather than stay out and argue back and forth it has consistently been Kajin has been hit, or if dark side starts clearing mobs, then light side has left. This, however, leads to the largest issue with PK and that is its dissolution.


NO CHANN:
QUINTILIUS:
Other than fire or water, what are we talking about? HoA? Is lightning a fire weave?

(serious question)
While not FOFY, fire or water abilities block spells that have their highest requirement as fire or water. This will mean the obvious examples of fireball or ice spikes, but will not hamper other spells which have a variety of requirements, but do not have those elements as their main. Lightning does end up being a fire weave for the reasons above. Hammer of air would work in these rooms.


RATE OF CHANGE:
Atkins:
I think the real issue is rate of changes. Too much stuff at once as was pointed out leads to having no idea what is affecting your outcomes.

This is a fair point, however, I am curious how much stuff could you actually measure and what measurements would be useful to see what PK is doing? Ideally we would have more PK logs posted for the moments of PK that I am not a part of and that I do not get to watch, but we don't get a lot of logs posted. Data collection is really good and can lead to better decisions objectively, but the perceived issue I have, tackled below, is enabled by the environment.





CASTIEN EXAMPLE:
ZARTH:
The issue that I see with Kajin, Treesinger, Lockshear, and other areas are stark when it's high numbers of absers vs 1 or 2 high defense low fleelag characters. The issue is not particularly that it's unbalanced in either way, there are a ton of situations that are unbalanced. If a solo absers hits a smob group he's going to get wrecked, that's fine and nobody complains about it. The issue with these situations is that both sides have vastly different perspectives on the risks, so it ends up just causing negativity. The high defense low fleelag character looks at it and says, "it's 4v1! I am taking all the risk! You should be hitting!". The absers look at it and say, "Even if we hit you you're just going to flee and whittle us down, if we get lucky to land a bash you're going to autoflee! If you ever get close to actually dying you're just going to leave and we can't block you! We're not going to hit!" This causes both sides to be pissed off.

The exact thing happened a few days ago in stedding. Castien (full dodge) was TS, it was Foil (combo heron), Drull (abs), Nazrgun (abs). When I showed up (3 absers now) Foil and the other trollocs had moved to the new sted patty because the trollocs were crit. Castien was wounded and yelling at Foil for going to mobs. I walked in and engaged, Castien immediately moved to Treesinger. I then hit with Foil for a few minutes. I got 1 unbashed hit but was never able to finish a bash timer before Castien fled. Foil finished 2 timers, he landed 1 and we got maybe 2 hits off of it as I autofled Castien when I entered (he was batt). I lost about 150 hps doing this and decided to leave. It was especially bad in that situation because Castien is full dodge and dismounted so unbashed we could only get 2 attackers on him. I'm sure it felt to him that he was taking all of the risk because he was fighting a bunch of high damage weapons, but to us it felt like he had very little risk as he'd just keep fleeing and if he ever got beaten or crit he could just leave through either of the 2 exits. I left and then the rest did too. All the pk did was piss everyone off which could be seen in discord a few minutes later!

Now, is there an alternative? I don't know, I think a key has to be players realizing that sometimes the situation just doesn't allow for good pk. If that happens then I think you have to leave. All staying around is going to do is get you mad. I think an interesting change would be to have Kajin be mobile, but change campsite area to be 3x3 with like 3-4 sergeants/soldiers and set 2n2e5n to be the nomob. This leaves some more space there, allows Kajin to roam around a bit, but you only need 1 to block now (though it's not a terrible block for either side as it's 50/50).

I also think that there should be a collection of mob only weapons with extremely high ob and low damage and that don't chortlesnorfling pierce.
FOIL:
I have heard the argument many times "I play a regular trolloc all the time and I can do this, I can do that, I bash and get kills". That's great, anyone can get a kill every now and again. At the end of the day what usually ends up happening is experienced highly bonused, well statted players in full dodge or high end combo flee around strong mob support while the less geared, knowledgeable players get pk'd by mobs and they clean up the kills. We call it mob support, but really the mobs end up doing the lions share of the actual pk.

It might be fun gameplay for the person fleeing around those mobs watching absers die, it might give you some excitement to pk out numbered that way, but for the persons who are fruitlessly chasing you around get slapped from one end of a zone to another and eventually spending their 5 in the CoD it wasn't that much fun. It becomes hard to encourage people to stay positive and pk when time and time again they given the same results of failure at Kajin or the like.
Isabel:
@zarth - reading your post what jumped out was that it seemed defensive setup (especially for a dismounted character) was the issue and not the mob support. Imagine the 4v1 with an abs human and defensive ds rogues for instance.

Also assuming the pk is dynamic, there is every incentive for the defensive 1 to leave mobs and chase after low hp absers no?
ZARTH:
What abs human? Do they still exist???

4 ds rogues vs 1 abser and the abser is not going to go Kajin, they're going to go in. Excluding some city heads or absurd mobs like old warders there's not enough mob support in the game to make that worthwhile. In my opinion there isn't much incentive for the 1 to come off mobs either. They might chase off of mobs briefly if the the abser is crit or the group is split, but if the group gets together it will be back to mobs. This is the correct decision for the dodger in that case too.

If you make the mobs useful for absers in 4v1 now they're absurd for dodger/combo.
RAGYN:
What stands out to me here is, why would you go sit with a patrol or mobs if it is 4v1. You've now created the incentive for Castien to chase off from his patrol, but he probably isn't going to go hit you solo at a patrol. Heron wielding fade should shred dodge and you've created the incentive for him to move, to maybe try to kill one of the low absers or use weaker mobs, wolves for example.

Had a similar experience the other day in stedding. 4v5 favoring DS, but we ended up getting a few of them low using mobs and them not regrouping faster together. Then they went and sat with a patrol blight. It seems like a wasted opportunity. You've created the opportunity for the outnumbered group to hit you without mobs, one person is going to get two people on them, so if the other group members don't win their fights fast, well now that one person is going to be taking a lot of damage fast and you now have the opportunity to chase down the last fella to flee.
PK is all bout creating incentives for the other side to hit you at a disadvantaged spot, but if you don't wave that carrot in front of their face why should they hit you. It probably relates to Mikhan or Eol's point of people using mobs "wrong" in lack of a better word.

Kajin PK is usually used to get some of the trollocs low, maybe catch one trying to regroup and then often it moves to sergeants as DS has now created an incentive for LS to try to make a stand at lesser mobs, despite being outnumbered, because there is a chance of a kill now. If there is no chance of a kill, but all the chances of dying, there isn't much point to it.
DAVOR:
Castien is also a poor example. He likely has the best gear on the game. Is a Wolfbrother so not a single malus of being dismounted in the heart of DS territory. In addition to being a fairly skilled player. I'm sure there were opportunities to win given you had a fade with a heron and 3 others. If he chased some of your low trollocs - which knowing Castien - im sure he did, one bash and serk from Foil and he will likely go into the Ouch thread. Every dodger has been featured there. I would say its not uncommon and all these 1v4 situations are actually quite rare.

I would say my success on DS hitting Kajin with more numbers far exceeds my success on Matheus/Davor fighting outnumbered at Kajin. Especially in the 1v4 category. They make for neat logs I can occasionally pull off but the majority of times just ends with me dead or sitting crit in FD.
ZARTH:
Castien can't stand up to that group without ls mobs. In that situation there is actually no difference to sitting at ds mobs (and possibly an advantage to Castien). If it's just Castien around either the mobs will not engage (because of max engage) or they will actually keep someone with a real weapon from engaging! Mobs help you because if a group shows up you're not stuck, and you might get lucky and they aggro before you get hit (as abs). Now it may feel like a big difference, but in practice it's not. When I showed up he immediately went back to mobs. Again, this is the right thing for him to do! The situation is such that neither side has good options.

How low were the trollocs compared to you? Were they abs? Were you combo? How much fleelag did they have? How were their moves? All of these are probably why they went to a patrol instead of standing still. Did they actually have a chance to win in a standup fight or was it something like 4v5 where the 4 were hurt/scratched, 2 of the 5 were beat and the other 3 were wounded? I could be wrong and I'd be interested to see a log, but most of the time when people complain about others ruining PK by sitting at mobs their rationale doesn't really hold up beyond "I wanted you to stay so I could kill you".

I have not had that experience with Kajin PK. Instead what I generally see is 1 of 4 things:
1) DS Gets completely overwhelming numbers to destroy
2) LS has absers Kajin. DS hits and destroys the absers. Combo/dodgers leave
3) DS hits Kajin, LS flees around, DS gets low and try to regroup around dusty. LS might change to sergeants if they narrate and use them to buff, but once the group hits LS is back to Kajin. LS/super aggro mobs eat any abser slow to flee or who gets caught in a chokey flee area.
4) DS refuses to hit Kajin and leaves.

If more trollocs were combo or dodge or more ls was abs this would change of course, but with the way things are I don't see that happening.

There is some validity in hitting to get yourself low to try to get the other side comfortable enough to move off of their support, but I just think that with the way things have gone the difference between doing that and suiciding is too small.
CASTIEN:
That was my gripe. Zarth forgets to include the weapons the abs trollocs were using. Heron greatsword, Hooked swords, + whatever Zarth was using.

These are all high damage, high OB weapons. I watched a couple of them quaff strength teas. Now I can assume besides the fade, they're all 21 strength, probably pulling 190+ OB at least, with weapons that do far more damage. So, after going to TS after going from wounded to beaten in 4 unbashed hits near blight, I used mobs for a bit, got some of the trollocs and fade low.

The immediate reaction to one of them being in any minimal amount of danger (crit 4v1) wasn't to sit TS ent, or 1n TS ent at the shiverings, but to go straight to the new plethora of trolloc mobs near rottendoor. On top of complaints about having no flee-lag (I have 14 wil, I was definitely fleelagged) and that they had to use mobs. It was pretty frustrating because my initial plan was to get them low and then move off to lower mobs to, I know shocker, entice pk. Lower mobs being: stedding wolves/ancient trees/ogier mobs around ftrail.

As Davor said, the possibility of just ending up on the OUCH thread was definitely high, but I get enjoyment from taking some form of risk in pk and to have somewhat of a good experience for both parties involved. There's a huge difference between maybe having someone who isn't crit spam and engage me before I get on the low trolloc, without the use of mobs. Mostly because those are tactics you can use without, again shocker, mob support when you outnumber the opponent.
FOIL:
I can see your point Castien, yes in a perfect world you want to use mob support to level the playing field, to bring your opponent into a killable range and then you can leave it. The issue I had in the particular case you have decided to elaborate on is, the trolls weren't particularly fond of the scenario. Yes you can sit TS ent at the no mob and hope you come in to try and finish the troll and I get a bash that ends you. However, when I am unsure of the mindset of those following me, the level of panic or distress, their level of pk ability. It seemed to me they didn't have the best grasp on how to deal with what was going on and were fixing to get themselves killed, so instead of give you the kill I chose to remove them from PK and decide what to do. That is unfortunately the leaders responsibility sometimes. It isn't my job to make sure my opponent has a good time. I can understand why it's frustrating for you but constantly complaining when someone doesn't play the game like you think they should doesn't really help anything.
FOIL:
Kinda in the same vein but kinda of not like a hybrid idea. I have been saying for awhile it's hard to balance mob support when the two sides are fundamentally different in two regards. Flee lag and viable pk set up options. I think balancing mob support would be somewhat easier if we clased the gap on flee lag difference on trolls vs humans. Also increase troll pracs to make more combo options viable. This maybe an not a good idea, I don't know. I'd like to hear others input on it.
DAVOR:
Plus, LS over the last few years have become less of pussies compared to DS - despite DS gaining an insane amounts of re-morts and bonuses, mostly rogues.


Overall this encounter and conversation does a bit to showcase the difficulties of 'getting it right'. You can see the various opinions on why this engagement felt like a no-win for either side and no one wants to PK where they feel like they have to take the risks and are likely going to just die to mobs. Compound that with the rares involved and you've got something closer to a recipe for a stalemate. Even if Foil's group stood at a room with no mobs in it once they had all gotten low, the likelihood of Castien being confident to do anything was still very low. He might risk an auto or two, but if the person who is highest hit points engages first twice then it won't lead anywhere and he'll likely leave to a different part of the zone. Maybe they can chase him to worse mobs than TS, but it is unlikely. The fade and trollocs would not be able to scan room by room as they walked and so likely would not move because of a lack of hit points and confidence. In this case I might also assume some level of impatience between both sides to prove that they are right about what the other person is trying to do instead of seeing what happens, but it wouldn't make a significant difference either way on the outcome or the feelings of all involved.

In retrospect we can all agree that between all the commentary and perspectives there is a piece of truth. The problem is that we play a game in real time which rarely contains communication that is filtered. And when copied or pasted around comes off as filtered and thought out statement, rather than the impulse it is. These are the types of engagements that felt even worse at old Kajin because, rather than a stalemate, the dodger 9 times out of 10 would end it with a kill.

So tie this into group PK, say 4 at old Kajin and 9 at burnt, and you're likely to experience an exaggerated version of what happened above with more people and more communication. I bring up communication a lot because there are ways to get allies to join you, inside and outside of the game. This is a community, and unfortunately, the more the PK experience becomes a reason you avoid PK the worse off we are collectively moving forward, especially people who play for PK. It amazes me that there are now large swathes of the playerbase that do either limited or no form of northern PK and I wonder how much it has to do with the environment that the end of PK (old Kajin, dusty, Blight) reinforced. We all probably had really cool moments at Kajin, but I would say those are the 1 out of 5 experiences of being at Kajin. Often times it was someone who could stay at Kajin did, while the other side either hit or didn't hit Kajin, while yelling at each other replaced any attempt to rally your side or to build up your PK base. Maybe you narrated to mock the experience you were having, I wonder if consistently listening to this environment from the south would make it interesting at all?

The last two points from Foil and Davor seem subjective, but worth mentioning. The balance of LS mobs up north will make it easier for DS and warriors in specific to play around mobs. If you dislike fighting fleebies then the answer to fighting them is likely not to have fleebies on your side, but in heavier armor. Inflating practice numbers, reducing fleelag for trollocs, or increasing practices just further unbalances things on an inherent level and solving that then through mobs or equipment stats increases the gap between remorts or bonused characters and the average player experience.

It has been good to see an influx of trolloc absers playing because the dynamic has for a long time been what Davor mentioned. More competent players on LS, the ease of practices and stas on LS, and the general availability of all gear has led to a lot more setups that can take risks or play aggressively (while being a mainly defensive setup). Meanwhile, re-morts with their inability to group and rogues, who would prefer not to group often meant that the risk taking didn't ever come across as a risk. Fades often know their disadvantages and some are more prone to enter PK with full display of their bonuses to equalize any perceived grouping gap if they are solo even when other remorts are around. Anyone who has fought enough fades have been annoyed by mobs and shadow stallions over the years. And the nature of backstab setups, but rogues in particular, mean you stay last to see if you can land a stab due to inattentive playing or max-engage.

This coupled with the prevalence of Sense on Light Side has generally led to remorts playing more passively and rogues smelling up a zone to the point where LS never chases north because of the healthy trolloc that is still trying to get stabs off west dusty or blands. As far as a community playing a game there is more stagnation in PK than there is in smobbing which dynamically is changed to adjust to players finding new and improved ways to bypass additions in order to have an easier experience. If the environment where PK occurs is changed dynamically then it could maybe prompt reflection, but likely it should prompt readjusted tactics which allows for expertise, leadership, and a better community on either side. I have seen some of this. Comradery and people trying, which I appreciate, and I'm invested in being present to make adjustments to help the dynamic environment lead to more overall enjoyable experiences than worse experiences, but I am not interested in backing down from changes because the status quo was relatively fun sometimes. For how long we've all put into this game we should be willing to make it fun to be on the same team and fun to kill each other. The gameplay we experience should not be the reason and example we use to make personal attacks on each other as players.

Over the last few weeks Aureus and I have noticed one of the biggest deterrents to prolonged PK, though, is the, "well this is over attitude." combined with nothing objective to do in the area which often leads to these scenarios:

1. LS dissolves and a couple people stay in Blight while DS regroups, with reinforcements, and those people are crushed.
2. DS dissolves and a couple people stay Dusty (likely afk or inattentive) and they get crushed or run down.

It is rare that either of those examples are followed by the people who have already left trying to regroup together to come back. Generally loot, scalp, and RL, take precedent at this point and the winning team walks away from their dead while the losing team picks up scraps. There have been a few times where we've seen collective regroups lead to further engagements. This patience, along with the short Co* timers really allow what is enjoyable about PK to shine. We will try to come up with adjustments to fill time in Blight for LS or Dusty for DS, but if you're PKing with a large group and the opposing team has relatively comparable numbers then consider hitting a couple smobs or giving them time to heal. The lack of smells (on DS or LS) does not always mean 'oh they are done, or they're out.' Nor does the presence of smells mean 'oh we should stay here and make sure we flush that trolloc rogue or fade'. If you think it's going to be an abser, you're likely wrong.

Raspen
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:17 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Raspen » Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:15 pm

Appreciate the changes you're proposing. Anything that removes stagnation and offers a bit of give and take will help the overall situation. Biggest concern is how to stop a steamroll or "clearing the board" where there is stagnation for several hours while the winners are home counting their spoils. The losers, if it happens too much, find the game is more of a hassle and play other games.
Been seeing some sparks of continuous pk which most of the folks here would want to see. Nearly equal deaths and exchange of chasing. I think Kajin's newer adjustments will at least give a bit more stability to while not offering a complete shut down. Though we'd have to see for a few.

Anything to get away from the bickering back and forth that creates resentment long after the fight. Because that will just result in a very small pond which isn't an achievement at all.

Lets see these changes. As far as stedding. Its improved for sure. I have some tweaks I'd suggest but too soon in my opinion.

Raspen
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:17 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Raspen » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:30 pm

First fight there seemed a little strong for LS. Lets see a few more reps though.

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