North PK related changes

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Davor
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:38 pm

North PK related changes

Post by Davor » Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:23 pm

Edited.

I may have been a it harsh. I do not think the changes were conducive to anything good. I will illustrate my thoughts below.

So dissapointed.
Last edited by Davor on Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dixon
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:50 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Dixon » Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:49 pm

After using the new Kajin area today for a bit, I actually kind of like it. Kajin is there if need the heavy support but a lot of mobs to use otherwise. Plus not being trapped campsite is nice also. Used it a few times to get out sub 20 hp and come back.

Harun
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:45 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Harun » Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:42 pm

Overall, I think the changes are trending in the right direction. Particularly making the rooms scannable and the link between campsite and pittrap. Scannable rooms remove the need for face-checking in a choked area, and the link means that there's a little more room to maneuver.

I don't think it's necessary for Kajin to be stationary, and it probably would be okay to lower his mob levels a little bit. I also don't think the ramshorned are necessary, but I haven't seen them get used at all yet. One of those situations where they're probably always going to be too strong or too weak.

LS mob support up north has always been terrible for both sides, so I'm glad to see some experimenting - especially when Feneon seems vigilant enough to modify tests that are clearly not working. The stedding changes have been really fun so far. It seems like both sides can push it harder in Treesinger.

I understand Davor is the player most heavily nerfed by the pittrap changes, but I am confident he can still get kills!

Detritus
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 am

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Detritus » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:00 pm

Static mobs are terrible, pittrap door full of mobs is terrible.

Mobs that move create much more dynamic pk, i would give ragan a few rooms to move long before i pinned kajin in place.

Could just swap kajin and blands patrol so that kajin the smob stays in the football field blands without needing to nerf and dusty gets a weaker but still impactful patrol that can track around.

Eol
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Eol » Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:18 pm

Davor is mean but also someone we should all learn from and listen to and love.

I appreciate the attempts - especially the feeling that we're trying to bring people back into the corners of zones. Ie. I used to sit in the ogier mound with the 3 ogier/+spirits. I got hit there once, ever. The ogier NE village really never served a purpose other than that the Warder pair loaded in rottendoor (which was awful) I have more to say on that, but I appreciate the attempt. The feeling that the nooks of a zone should have a purpose.

-The simple truth is humans do have more viable mob support than they had in the past albeit they sort of started at nothing.

-My hope is that we will continue to strongly move away from "mob lead" type support and towards viable support for all that is not dependent on a master/fade being there. In a world without mob lead we can ask ourselves - where would we want mobs to be placed to be viable for all, appropriately accessible etc. I get that there are fewer players now that have mob lead, but the history of lead is one of the saddest parts of this game.

-I'm Ok with trying to find Kajin a permanent location. I just talked to people - there are some good arguments for having him move. His changing position creates dynamic PK where each session is different based on the location. Blight is similarly different every PK due to mobile patrols. I'll try to give positives though I acknowledge the value of the above. It is quite strong. A troll "looking for Kajin" ie. looking for humans who are probably at Kajin essentially has to scout for and likely take free hits at Kajin. Kajin's location was also so variable that some of the time it was very favorable and other times it was unuseable. Now there's not a question of what it means when someone says "on Kajin". Its not anchored in the center of the portion of the zone where roaming mobs load which would prevent their use for small-medium PK.

-The Tower location probably made zero sense for Kajin. My intial feeling was - ugh, being mounted above a no-ride will suck. But when I considered the benefits of dismounting. Trolls will have 2 flees where they will have to walk past Kajin. A human who flees up can try to rally at elites. A human who dismounts can't be smelled so trolls will have to scout or track or something. A lot of things we could say but it probably didn't fit the mold of making it less dangerous for all.

-The soldiers in the pittrap - maybe I'm not being very imaginative - but they were one of the few human patrols in a door that I am aware of. Not asking someone to make a list or a who has what. Just saying human patrols are usually out in the open and trolls are more likely to be in doors as a general rule. So really this is probably what Davor is most salty about and yes, Harun beat me to posting this joke.

-I sort of feel Davor on the idea of - why did trolls need to have mob support dusty. That said, human mob support is more generous than it was historically so I'm open to possibilities. My question though is - will it actually get used. Obviously we know it will, but I want to make a small point. I played a lot of darkside awhile back and trolls and humans both are more than capable of walking past viable mob support and not using it. Humans will run past Commander to Kajin. Trolls will go straight from dusty to DF to Blight skipping Camp. And don't bother ever asking a troll to use FD fade. Regardless of the utility of certain patrols there is still often this player driven perception that certain areas are worthless or that opposing players can easily overcome the advantage of them. The reality of this is probably mixed and leans towards players needing to give it a try.

Where I'm going with this is - what do you want the pittrap to be used for. You're basically saying - trolls are in humans strongest zone and they need a toe-hold to stand at, but you put it in a door. Doors in general mean finality if a fight happens - you win or you lose. But they often simply mean the fight doesn't happen and this is far more common than a door fight. I personally suspect that if you put 2 shivs and a Gholem mob above a no ride pittrap that you'd have gotten more PK but maybe that's not what you want.

-I'm going to bring this foward and my hope is that it stays but maybe it is unintended. When the soldiers were removed from the pittrap it seems the soldier zone count was left the same. So now the soldiers load in the forest area around the "Woods". My personal hope is they will stay there creating an area of non-dense but available low level support. The sergeant in this area continues to load naked.

-Regarding the area north of burnt. The added new room seems to have created a new path for the mobs to move through towards the pittrap area. One of the tricky things about the area north of burnt is that if the area is X mobs divided by Y rooms and Y is too large the mobs become less useful. I don't have a perfect answer for this but each time I look I find sergeants in new places I haven't previously seen them. I believe there are 7(?) of them. The historically most popular sergeant support was when 3-5 of them were trapped in a limited area north of burnt. I think that somewhat needs to be taken into account - limiting the area makes it less dynamic, but greatly increasing the area decreases the density and therefore decreases the utility. The somewhat "dream" of dusty mob support was to have an area where a human could flee around and force trolls to find mobs in connecting rooms much like Blight at times has high mob density.

-Dusty Tower. Sadly, the Kajin move there reinforces just how difficult it is to find a purpose for this old relic. The rogue practice has been moved into FD for anyone who didn't notice.

-The new winding patrol. Haven't seen it used yet. Will hopefully continue to draw humans to Winding.

-Removing the Orchard No channel. I sort of suspect we're going to miss this room. I love the stedding, do enjoy playing an FC, but also recognize FCs are awful/need coding change. Having limited rooms creates all manner of strategery, focus just like having limited no hides and no rides and what not. That created a focal and important room for darkside to stop at without going blight. Stedding is great but from a dynamic gameplay perspective it entirely shuts down a class. We wouldn't create an entire zone that is no hide. Its there, it isn't going anywhere, but we should still have limited no channels and there is value in placing them in such a way that darkside doesn't run directly to Blight.

-Overall Stedding. Damn! Feels a bit empty without all the nuisance aggro stuff removed. Spent forever here in the past chasing Axo screaming about being haggard or getting aggroed by stupid small stuff. It wasn't mentioned but one of the most problematic mobs in this zone are the worm load just below downer. I've seen some fights become very unpredictable when 3 worms appear. Could we get some small non-aggro food mobs added ie. some sort of deer/stags/whatever?

-Tunnel ogier are aggro to humans. Ogier spirits are not aggro to trolls. Not saying any of these should be changed. Just stating that as an observation.

-Treesinger was historically the place you went to die when you lost your horse. Its functionality seems to have decreased through time perhaps as a reflection of gameplay dynamics, other mob support etc. Hopefully the door change will make people both more willing to use it but also more willing to hit it.

-New troll camp Stedding. Well I like the rooms being put to use. Not quite sure what to make of it. Seems to have 17 mobs which is more than I initially thought it would have (making it very similar to camp which I think has like 17-19). 2 exits is obviously similar to TS and obviously one of the exits is new which will cause people to be careful running to sted from Blight. Its somewhat chokey which is nice. Earlier I discussed the idea of walking past mobs that are insufficient. I think there will be situations where people will think its too weak (maybe vs warders and if camp is too weak then this must be too weak too by comparison) but its otherwise this is a high number count area to also be no channel. It could be overly popular. Its not like its a big Hike from Blight. I think if you start seeing trolls constantly regrouping Stedding rather than Blight you're going to know you have a problem. If the entirety of camp was no channel do you think trolls would be there all the time?

-Like the increasing number of shivs/ancients stedding.

-I said this to someone forever ago - remove Shrubbery tunnels. Keep shrubbery door but make it scannable. Put a CTF inside. I've never seen in this game a door patrol that either side could use. Would definitely be a different dynamic since in most cases for this game certain areas are loved by 1 side, hated by the other and there's no middleground. A CTF patrol opens an area up to being used by both sides.

-If you're removing pointless mobs I have 1 word for you - clenchers.

-Gap fade patrol roams an enormous area.

-Trolls seem to get less use out of Winding shiverings than humans do. Agree/disagree?

-I think there's still a DT over next to Orchard patty. If the N-LS DT was removed to prevent people from suiciding to screw their opponent then - just saying.

I normally spend about a week rewriting a post so I will regret this tomorrow.

Vannor
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:05 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Vannor » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:25 am

That's a well thought out interesting post Eol, thanks.

After years of playing LS and the frustrations of constantly fighting Blight with the excessive mvs malus, thousands of options for escape etc I always felt like DS was somewhat handheld.

Now after playing DS PK exclusively the last 6mo or so, in addition to both sides mobs being aggro, I think it's fairly close to equal if you think about it terms of Blight is DS, Fal Dara/Winding/Dusty being LS and the areas inbetween somewhat up for grabs.

For an equivalency argument, obviously both areas aren't the same.

Kajin specifically is/was a problem because it is/was so strong that 90% of LS would skip everything else and go straight there since it's so powerful.

I would've thought a general downing of that smob and maybe slightly upping commie would have been the fix, but looks like imms are trying out a few different things with it. This is ok, and if anyone disagrees I'd like to see the arguments for why Kajin should have remained the way it was.

Ive been in a number of PK sessions where the new Winding patty was used, and it's an interesting addition since the patty chases which sometimes helps, but sometimes hurts LS. Removing the bash from it was a good thing.

I don't think we'll have a good picture of how these changes work out until the holiday zone is removed since it's quite powerful in a mobility sense of skipping DF or gap with multiple exit points.

Lockshear is an odd zone too, having been spending a decent amount of time there, and a few PK sessions. It just overall feels weird to fight in, but I think that Eols point about mob support being behind doors dictates to a fairly high degree as to what will/won't be used. Referencing DS support here as tunnels/Ilsae, and as a sidenote making the rooms in the 'city' flagged as outside for tracks is an interesting low-key change that hurts DS and mostly benefits certain players that we're banned from discussing on forums.

I like the idea of stedding having an option for DS to fight at when faced with overwhelming channie numbers.

In fairness, since I can't use DS mob support it's hard to say how equal it feels. But I'm way less concerned getting aggroed by a fade patty walking through blight vs getting aggroed by the winding patty walking through winding, as a point of reference.

The flow of it at the moment feels about right in that if LS loses blight Ragan is an option, failing that its Kajin, since realistically if you're losing at Ragan you're going to lose at Commie as well.

If DS loses around dusty winding then they have Kno/camp as a fallback. The difference here is that if you lose in Camp it becomes a bit of a DT, and Kno is a bit unreliable. Using the patties around Kural also becomes a DT so realistically speaking DS are probably just skipping all that to go Blight 9/10 times.

Kajin fills the niche as 'last stand for LS' before Fal Dara, that's a good thing as opposed to sitting in the city. Blight is kind of the same for DS. The problem really was it was just fight trolls a bit and then head to Kajin hoping to bait them there to hit out of boredom for relatively easy kills. This succeeded with amazing consistency.

Overall most if not all Feneons changes are good and at least there is a PK imm actively trying to adjust things who does listen to feedback and willing to rollback those changes or do different things based on that feedback.

Davor
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Davor » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:57 am

So as I see north PK the current changes make no sense. I believe I play both sides equally with probably similar success and failures.

When humans retreat they have a stationary point at Ragan. One of those two locations of Ragan (orchard) is more ideal than the other making it of limited use. As Eol pointed out, stationary patrols are not the best support. They are useful when the numbers are very limited and its 1v2 or 2v2 with someone being very low. Once numbers get to 3v1, no stationary patrol is going to be helpful. Unless that 1 solo player is a 160 db stabber/piercer and the 3 opponents are all absers. A relatively rare occurrence, even then he will likely lose.

Now commander is a bit of a stronger version of Ragan, however, in a slightly safer set up for flees. I am now comparing Commander to Ragan in the Gap which would be a more similar comparison. I would say this is just an amplified version where you could take the above numbers I laid out and add 1 to DS and LS could perhaps make it work. Your only goal here is not to get bashed and hope the DS fails flees and eats mob damage. Or you fail flees eat a bash and die.

Now we get to Kajin and dusty road. The last place LS can put up a fight before going in. This zone is already naturally set up for 1v1, 2v1, 3v1, 4v2, 10v5..etc. You have sergeants that don't move to campsite area. You have soldiers in Pittrap. You have Kajin. You have elite mobs/random mobs in tower and you have a patrol in the Woods area. Kajin moves so his usefulness also dynamically changes from a Ragan/Commander situation at 1n Pittrap or where it currently is situated versus a more dynamic usefulness where he chases or is in a multi exit room. His chasing is also the only thing that can turn around a fight, you can't have a stationary patrol - ESPECIALLY in it's current place and expect any changes in the fight. You will widdle down your opponents HPs and it will still be 10v5 and you will lose a straight up fight. At least with Kajin moving you can seperate them and hope for a kill or two.

If its not big numbers PK you can utilize sergeants or as I do occasionally the patrol in the woods area.

Now the connection between campsite and pittrap area. I mean what is the point? So no one ever dies? yes it was a chokey area, big chortlesnorfling deal, thats the dice. You go there or flee there you die. There isnt a free get out of jail card every time. It is already insanely easy to run and flee. At this point why not add a connection from campsite to above winding choke? Or remove DF choke and make it a square. Remove every chokey zone in the game.

This change was a tremendous benefit to DS and I find it stupid. The side is already 90% remorts and easy mode dung stain rogues.

If this change stands we should make all Blight patrols stationary. We should get 4 soldiers in fencegate in the Blight and do some more stupid stuff as well.

And yes, pittrap has been a wonderful pit of both great glory for me and pain. It is fundamentally a part of my game because the only reason I get 60+ search on my characters is so I can open it - true story. But seriously, dusty is a beautifully designed zone and the mob dynamics are the last bastion for LS to put up a fight. I anticipate PK just ending now as it did last night. I didn't even try or want to try. Why sit at stationary Kajin while 9 DS wail on you? No point, no chance to win, no chance to even it so no chance I will play it. If I wanted that I would sit Commander - the flees are better if I need to leave. It's also more powerful.

What you could do with the current Kajin location (if you demanded it had to be stationary) is move him to the center of the campsite and remove the connecting zone to Pittrap, or make it between two doors at the opposite ends of the connection. So then you could actually split up DS when they have so many numbers and maybe make small hits N/NE/E of Kajin as they flee..this would set up something similar to Ragan in Orch where E/S flees are relatively bad for DS and LS can make small forrays into widdling down split group members. I am still against him being stationary, but this location would work far better than its current dead end one.

I am still completely against this shotgun approach to changes that seem to occur. If your goal is to test a theory - in this case it appears Feneon wants DS to have an easier time, then make some small changes. When you change the fundamental zone, mob support on DS AND LS, then how are you even testing your theory. It makes no sense. You give dung data you get dung results.

Mikhan
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:55 am

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Mikhan » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:07 pm

You know how Eol mentions players walking past viable mob support without using it? Yes, this is a common occurrence. You know what is (or was?!) also a common occurrence? DS players not chasing to or hitting dusty with 3v1, 4v1, or sometimes even greater odds. Sometimes against a solo ABSer. This was typically in situations where players who favor vulture strategies are looking for easy kills. At (old) dusty, a chasing Kajin would even things out a little bit so there was an actual risk of death to DS. Ironically, it became popular on DS to "call out" an outnumbered human or two running to Kajin as players "looking for easy kills" (this is not to be confused with a big human group losing a fight at a patrol in the Blight and immediately scattering to regroup way down at Kajin). Sometimes this would just fracture a DS group, so that only 1 or 2 chased to dusty, and eventually PK would resume there with more balanced odds, often at the sergeants N of burnt -- a fine outcome. At other times, you'd think only a few DS had chased, until they got low and changed places with the other trolls blocking burnt and 2n2e and then you were toast. And at other times there would be 6 or 7 or the sergeant would bellow about a Dreadlord and unless you got good flees, you were fucked -- you'd boxed yourself into a chokey situation with little prospect of survival. But anyways, my point here is that I disagree with Vannor's assertion that (old) Kajin was this thing that was mainly used for easy kills. I see Kajin as this thing that made easy kills not as easy, and gave humans a chance of getting a kill when they couldn't otherwise -- something that at its best turned a LS suicide situation into a risky PK situation, and a DS easy-kill situation into something you had to be more careful about. Outnumbered LS died regularly at Kajin, not infrequently in full-sweeps. DS died regularly at Kajin, too. In my view this was a good state of affairs.

Now, sometimes you'd have a sort of even fight at dusty, and when you hit Kajin pukes would swarm out of FD who hadn't been PKing until this point. That is the type of situation where Kajin felt the most overpowered and unnecessary to people playing on DS. And I sympathize, having been there many times myself, but I don't think that problem is so much a problem with Kajin.

I don't think these changes were necessary or good for PK. My hunch is that they were made in response to a perceived overpoweredness of Kajin that was formed more from hearing players bitch than it was from observing the full spectrum of what PK at Kajin entailed. It was like a PDW about Kajin became a regularly occurring meme on narrates, and then people started to believe in it. My main gripe with the changes is Kajin being made stationary. I think Davor does a good job of explaining why.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something or am just blinded by a bias against what I perceive as excessive whining. Maybe I'm just excessively whining here...damn now I'm really confused

Weir
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:44 am

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Weir » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:32 pm

I do feel Kajin was definitely on the slightly too powerful side, able to dish out a crazy amount of damage in a couple rounds. However, the problem was a happy medium between Kajin and the rest of the mobs dusty. Individual chasing sergeants/soldiers just don't do enough in a lot of situations (but at times are great for close PK) and Kajin is too much.

I'm not sold on tying Kajin in place, but him chasing has been both a blessing and a curse for me in the past from both sides.

What I feel could have been an interesting change to try to find a middle ground is instead of having the wandering patrol winding east of NEON, put it between 4E and Neon (or locked around 4E if the zone repop would be screwy with it crossing zones). A lot of the reason PK leaves the Commander winding is because of the threat of getting stuck east of 4E (and getting trapped between there and Neon).

All said though, I haven't had a chance to experience much of these changes so can't really chime in from a direct perspective.

Davor
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: North PK related changes

Post by Davor » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:13 pm

Oh and I apologize to Feneon for my original post. I know he and other immortals are spending time they don’t have to. This is also far from a Blight change scenario where I end up sitebanned and deleted. :-)

I think if PK zones need changing that should stay in the south where no one cares or knows any better. The north remembers!

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