Mikhan pretty much nailed it. As annoying as it can be to constantly chase certain people who go there at the drop of a hat, the only overwhelmingly obvious issue with Kajin was how quickly it aggroed compared to other patrols and maybe it was a little too dead-end-y for actually sustaining PK.
So I actually don't mind the new room/connection. That connection can mitigate for some of the 'flock out of FD' or 'DS hits with a dung-ton' situations all the same, but the stationary Kajin feels like an overcorrection that makes the the patrol kind of worthless outside of situations where you can just stand in one room (which is not when a patrol that strong should be getting used). I think it'd be worth considering a mobile Kajin that can move around the loop from 1e No Mob to Pit Trap to the New Room to Campsite.
At this point, I think I've spent more time hitting Kajin while playing DS than sitting at it on LS, but have had successes and failures at it on both sides. I think it went in either direction more often than anyone complaining too hard about it thinks.
TL; DR -
1) If it hasn't been done already, fix the aggro time on Kajin.
2) Make it wander in that loop.
North PK related changes
Re: North PK related changes
I think Elysia did fix the aggro value of Kajin not long ago, it was set at max before that for some reasonerulak wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:26 pmMikhan pretty much nailed it. As annoying as it can be to constantly chase certain people who go there at the drop of a hat, the only overwhelmingly obvious issue with Kajin was how quickly it aggroed compared to other patrols and maybe it was a little too dead-end-y for actually sustaining PK.
So I actually don't mind the new room/connection. That connection can mitigate for some of the 'flock out of FD' or 'DS hits with a dung-ton' situations all the same, but the stationary Kajin feels like an overcorrection that makes the the patrol kind of worthless outside of situations where you can just stand in one room (which is not when a patrol that strong should be getting used). I think it'd be worth considering a mobile Kajin that can move around the loop from 1e No Mob to Pit Trap to the New Room to Campsite.
At this point, I think I've spent more time hitting Kajin while playing DS than sitting at it on LS, but have had successes and failures at it on both sides. I think it went in either direction more often than anyone complaining too hard about it thinks.
TL; DR -
1) If it hasn't been done already, fix the aggro time on Kajin.
2) Make it wander in that loop.
Re: North PK related changes
Don’t really like most of the changes up north lately. Kajin imo was fine. It was a give and take area. The only time it really became a problem was your flock support from FD at times. The Kajin aggro downing was great. The mob level or less buff was great. Other then that…the area needed nothing. Pit was also nice for a deterrent for bigger numbers. As is I’m not fond of the layout/changes. I think the area n to all n burnt being no mob is bad.
Low mob pk is nice, sergs we’re decent enough if bunched to help outside of Kaj. Channies will warp any situation. There just pretty dumb. Specifically if already outnumbered. They can explode easy on occasion. The change moving Kajin from all n burnt to current is muchhhh better. Still wish it was never changed. Honestly it’s aggro time and mob lvl downed was enough. But high profile DS whined enough and here we are.
The new zone sucks imo. Hope it gets removed. There doesn’t need to be another exit north. Learning new things isn’t always exciting for older players. Especially returning players. Sweeping changes are deterrent then helpful sometimes. The connection to gap as well makes me throw up. The roaming patty was interesting, but not really needed either.
The sted changes I actually really like. I can’t think of anything bad with these yet. But haven’t pked here much lately.
Here’s some small simple changes I’d like to see instead of zone changes/additions etc. 4e 2n e 3 set shivs. Without a map my memory is crap so my rooms might be off a bit. But a 2-3 set of ancients s w or 2w s of neon. A stationary gate guard on par with RE door guard 4e 2s w dusty. 2 shivs 6w n w. 2 shivs 1e cave ent dusty. Revert Kajin changes completely barring the downing of aggro time/mob levels. 2 trolls like rams all n D burnt, keep it no ride/no door going down but rideable 1u.
Make s ancients winding perms 2 set not just occasionally 1. Put a 2 set shiv s all e? Of Split. A roaming 2 troll mid lvl pat around oasis. Within a 4-5 roam of oasis. 4 set of ancients where safety gate is. And throw in 3 wolves the within winding. 2 ancients n e n saw. 4 set ancients e s e u? From ptg 2 set ancients w s few w? Strong trolloc mob old kno pat location. And a Kno d n all E of that.
Add another shiv 2n w camp ent. Make all e n w camp ent and all e 2-3n? 2 shivs. N E s rocky ent 2 shivs. Add a third ancient 2n e shady. 2 or 3 ancients nw corner of blands. Solo ancient e s e s of no Chan at site. Solo shiv all 2n e 2n of shady.
2 set of shivs e s shrubbery df. 3 shivs se corner temple. 2 shivs 2w n of moldy. Add an ancient 2n w of e df choke.
Wolf pat of 3 where the solo wolf is DF. Add 2-3 more trolls in shrubbery, and a stationary mid tier like strong troll 1w shrubbery at door.
Put a 3 set of ancients sw corner or orch in the box area. Add 2 2shivs around se of angel. 2 shivs n few w of orch pat.
Ctf like pat at blight ls scout se of rock for LS stationary . Down blight heat 1hp? Stationary ctf like DS pat n e path. Solo mid tier level stationary scout for ls 2 E ent. Strong trolloc stationary mob n w 3n shoulder.
Strong trolloc like LS scout s w u s Mire stationary . Ctf like ls pat 4n w n few e stationary.
LS ctf like pat se corner of n LS stationary. DS ctf like pat sw corner of N LS. Solo LS strong trolloc scout in the area just SE goat past the tunnels ent, forget spams. Dark hound that can spawn more like blights u 2e n e? In tunnels.
LS ctf like stationary pat nw corner of n spine around mare load. DS ctf like stationary pat somewhere in the off rooms SE debris.
DS commander like level stationary pat where tentacles are, remove both sets of tentacles.
Revert the no channel changes to as they were before.
Yeah that’s about all I got. Small and decent mob support spread throughout.
Low mob pk is nice, sergs we’re decent enough if bunched to help outside of Kaj. Channies will warp any situation. There just pretty dumb. Specifically if already outnumbered. They can explode easy on occasion. The change moving Kajin from all n burnt to current is muchhhh better. Still wish it was never changed. Honestly it’s aggro time and mob lvl downed was enough. But high profile DS whined enough and here we are.
The new zone sucks imo. Hope it gets removed. There doesn’t need to be another exit north. Learning new things isn’t always exciting for older players. Especially returning players. Sweeping changes are deterrent then helpful sometimes. The connection to gap as well makes me throw up. The roaming patty was interesting, but not really needed either.
The sted changes I actually really like. I can’t think of anything bad with these yet. But haven’t pked here much lately.
Here’s some small simple changes I’d like to see instead of zone changes/additions etc. 4e 2n e 3 set shivs. Without a map my memory is crap so my rooms might be off a bit. But a 2-3 set of ancients s w or 2w s of neon. A stationary gate guard on par with RE door guard 4e 2s w dusty. 2 shivs 6w n w. 2 shivs 1e cave ent dusty. Revert Kajin changes completely barring the downing of aggro time/mob levels. 2 trolls like rams all n D burnt, keep it no ride/no door going down but rideable 1u.
Make s ancients winding perms 2 set not just occasionally 1. Put a 2 set shiv s all e? Of Split. A roaming 2 troll mid lvl pat around oasis. Within a 4-5 roam of oasis. 4 set of ancients where safety gate is. And throw in 3 wolves the within winding. 2 ancients n e n saw. 4 set ancients e s e u? From ptg 2 set ancients w s few w? Strong trolloc mob old kno pat location. And a Kno d n all E of that.
Add another shiv 2n w camp ent. Make all e n w camp ent and all e 2-3n? 2 shivs. N E s rocky ent 2 shivs. Add a third ancient 2n e shady. 2 or 3 ancients nw corner of blands. Solo ancient e s e s of no Chan at site. Solo shiv all 2n e 2n of shady.
2 set of shivs e s shrubbery df. 3 shivs se corner temple. 2 shivs 2w n of moldy. Add an ancient 2n w of e df choke.
Wolf pat of 3 where the solo wolf is DF. Add 2-3 more trolls in shrubbery, and a stationary mid tier like strong troll 1w shrubbery at door.
Put a 3 set of ancients sw corner or orch in the box area. Add 2 2shivs around se of angel. 2 shivs n few w of orch pat.
Ctf like pat at blight ls scout se of rock for LS stationary . Down blight heat 1hp? Stationary ctf like DS pat n e path. Solo mid tier level stationary scout for ls 2 E ent. Strong trolloc stationary mob n w 3n shoulder.
Strong trolloc like LS scout s w u s Mire stationary . Ctf like ls pat 4n w n few e stationary.
LS ctf like pat se corner of n LS stationary. DS ctf like pat sw corner of N LS. Solo LS strong trolloc scout in the area just SE goat past the tunnels ent, forget spams. Dark hound that can spawn more like blights u 2e n e? In tunnels.
LS ctf like stationary pat nw corner of n spine around mare load. DS ctf like stationary pat somewhere in the off rooms SE debris.
DS commander like level stationary pat where tentacles are, remove both sets of tentacles.
Revert the no channel changes to as they were before.
Yeah that’s about all I got. Small and decent mob support spread throughout.
Re: North PK related changes
This was what made it so undesirable to fight at as DS. It's what created the "they've gone Kajin for free kills" attitude, that I often share.
It created PK where even a person outnumbered 4-1 or worse was still in control, as you couldn't be blocked for and hit.
So making him not move tries to address some of this, it seems.
Re: North PK related changes
I'll respond to our thinking on this later today and engage some of the feedback.
Edit: I lied. I'll respond tomorrow.
Edit: I lied. I'll respond tomorrow.
Re: North PK related changes
Personally I don't really care much about the Kajin changes. In my opinion the new holiday zone is pretty bad though. It just gives too many escape routes. Now it serves as a hub connecting gap/winding/df...
Re: North PK related changes
STATIONARY
HARUN:
I don't think it's necessary for Kajin to be stationary, and it probably would be okay to lower his mob levels a little bit.
EOL:
The somewhat "dream" of dusty mob support was to have an area where a human could flee around and force trolls to find mobs in connecting rooms much like Blight at times has high mob density.
DAVOR:
What you could do with the current Kajin location (if you demanded it had to be stationary) is move him to the center of the campsite and remove the connecting zone to Pittrap, or make it between two doors at the opposite ends of the connection. So then you could actually split up DS when they have so many numbers and maybe make small hits N/NE/E of Kajin as they flee..this would set up something similar to Ragan in Orch where E/S flees are relatively bad for DS and LS can make small forrays into widdling down split group members. I am still against him being stationary, but this location would work far better than its current dead end one.
Kajin was hunting pretty efficiently. This, along with the choky area, and the extra mobs north of burnt gave a substantial benefit to light side and a disproportionately good position for high wil combo or dodge characters to kill trollocs, particularly absers. The scenarios I am reading are generally from the perspective of players who would like to play and profit against larger numbers. Kajin hunting made it worth your time to sit there on a dodger or combo user because Kajin could get kills. It rarely took more effort than spamming to profit in these scenarios. Kajin's aggro at 100% was put into play in 2016, so it's not new. It's removal along with the stationary position of Kajin makes Kajin feel a lot worse.
Downing the levels or removing extra mobs from him would only give a weaker version of the existing problem that Kajin was relatively low risk for a small number of players to use and a last resort for group play which led to more toxicity than actual combat.
LS MOB SUPPORT:
HARUN:
LS mob support up north has always been terrible for both sides, so I'm glad to see some experimenting - especially when Feneon seems vigilant enough to modify tests that are clearly not working. The stedding changes have been really fun so far. It seems like both sides can push it harder in Treesinger.
EOL:
1. The Tower location probably made zero sense for Kajin. My intial feeling was - ugh, being mounted above a no-ride will suck. But when I considered the benefits of dismounting. Trolls will have 2 flees where they will have to walk past Kajin. A human who flees up can try to rally at elites. A human who dismounts can't be smelled so trolls will have to scout or track or something. A lot of things we could say but it probably didn't fit the mold of making it less dangerous for all.
2. I'm going to bring this foward and my hope is that it stays but maybe it is unintended. When the soldiers were removed from the pittrap it seems the soldier zone count was left the same. So now the soldiers load in the forest area around the "Woods". My personal hope is they will stay there creating an area of non-dense but available low level support. The sergeant in this area continues to load naked.
MIKHAN:
Now, sometimes you'd have a sort of even fight at dusty, and when you hit Kajin pukes would swarm out of FD who hadn't been PKing until this point. That is the type of situation where Kajin felt the most overpowered and unnecessary to people playing on DS. And I sympathize, having been there many times myself, but I don't think that problem is so much a problem with Kajin.
EOL:
Dusty Tower. Sadly, the Kajin move there reinforces just how difficult it is to find a purpose for this old relic. The rogue practice has been moved into FD for anyone who didn't notice.
Tower is probably nostalgic from when Kajin and Ragan were dusty and split between the two areas. For now the Tower is rideable, but no mob adjustments are being made. It won't make a difference unless things on that side of the zone change.
I fixed the sergeant load on dusty. Let me know if this continues to be an issue. Those will continue to be there.
The point Mikhan makes is one that we can't control. While the sergeants (and soldiers) in Kajin area can walk from 2n 2e 2n to 1e no-mob, all north from there and use the side path, this gives dark side two paths to escape the area that don't include fast aggroing mobs. I think the issue you mentioned was compounded significantly by Kajin tracking and roaming. The sergeants also gave a lot of impunity to the same characters above who could bypass chokey areas without forcing them simply by waiting for mob aggro to build in their favor. A trolloc with enough fleelag will never effectively block you.
DUSTY CONNECTION TO KAJIN:
DAVOR:
Now the connection between campsite and pittrap area. I mean what is the point? So no one ever dies? yes it was a chokey area, big chortlesnorfling deal, thats the dice. You go there or flee there you die. There isnt a free get out of jail card every time. It is already insanely easy to run and flee. At this point why not add a connection from campsite to above winding choke? Or remove DF choke and make it a square. Remove every chokey zone in the game.
This change was a tremendous benefit to DS and I find it stupid. The side is already 90% remorts and easy mode dung stain rogues.
ERULAK:
So I actually don't mind the new room/connection. That connection can mitigate for some of the 'flock out of FD' or 'DS hits with a dung-ton' situations all the same, but the stationary Kajin feels like an overcorrection that makes the the patrol kind of worthless outside of situations where you can just stand in one room (which is not when a patrol that strong should be getting used). I think it'd be worth considering a mobile Kajin that can move around the loop from 1e No Mob to Pit Trap to the New Room to Campsite.
The biggest people who will benefit from this change are trolloc absers. Remorts and rogues, while an issue, will benefit more, but the aim is to benefit trolloc absers. With the stationary location Kajin is not going to rescue an engagement while you flee around. The extra path will be useful if you should choose to use Kajin in its current form. Mobs being able to go to either side of Kajin will help build up reinforcements. Likely the biggest issue there is that most groups just clear mobs progressively to get a player into a worse and worse situation.
PITTRAP:
DETRITUS:
Static mobs are terrible, pittrap door full of mobs is terrible.
HARUN:
I also don't think the ramshorned are necessary, but I haven't seen them get used at all yet. One of those situations where they're probably always going to be too strong or too weak.
EOL:
1. The soldiers in the pittrap - maybe I'm not being very imaginative - but they were one of the few human patrols in a door that I am aware of. Not asking someone to make a list or a who has what. Just saying human patrols are usually out in the open and trolls are more likely to be in doors as a general rule. So really this is probably what Davor is most salty about and yes, Harun beat me to posting this joke.
2. I sort of feel Davor on the idea of - why did trolls need to have mob support dusty. That said, human mob support is more generous than it was historically so I'm open to possibilities. My question though is - will it actually get used. Obviously we know it will, but I want to make a small point. I played a lot of darkside awhile back and trolls and humans both are more than capable of walking past viable mob support and not using it. Humans will run past Commander to Kajin. Trolls will go straight from dusty to DF to Blight skipping Camp. And don't bother ever asking a troll to use FD fade. Regardless of the utility of certain patrols there is still often this player driven perception that certain areas are worthless or that opposing players can easily overcome the advantage of them. The reality of this is probably mixed and leans towards players needing to give it a try.
DAVOR:
And yes, pittrap has been a wonderful pit of both great glory for me and pain. It is fundamentally a part of my game because the only reason I get 60+ search on my characters is so I can open it - true story. But seriously, dusty is a beautifully designed zone and the mob dynamics are the last bastion for LS to put up a fight. I anticipate PK just ending now as it did last night. I didn't even try or want to try. Why sit at stationary Kajin while 9 DS wail on you? No point, no chance to win, no chance to even it so no chance I will play it. If I wanted that I would sit Commander - the flees are better if I need to leave. It's also more powerful.
If this change stands we should make all Blight patrols stationary. We should get 4 soldiers in fencegate in the Blight and do some more stupid stuff as well.
Still are 5 soldiers in the zone. We had originally thought the ramshorned would provide use. Overall, though, if they got use in pittrap it would likely be to frustrate an individual and not a group. The ramshorned have been removed. In part Detritus is right, there are a lot of areas that you can use before you get to Kajin or Blight, but player expectations of the experience fast-forward them. Winding is a good PK zone, but the amount of 'I know what will happen if' that goes into play generally leaves LS booking it for Kajin and DS skipping shiverings, CTF, or kno'mon for blight.
KAJIN:
DETRITUS:
Could just swap kajin and blands patrol so that kajin the smob stays in the football field blands without needing to nerf and dusty gets a weaker but still impactful patrol that can track around.
VANNOR:
I would've thought a general downing of that smob and maybe slightly upping commie would have been the fix, but looks like imms are trying out a few different things with it. This is ok, and if anyone disagrees I'd like to see the arguments for why Kajin should have remained the way it was.
MIKHAN:
I don't think these changes were necessary or good for PK. My hunch is that they were made in response to a perceived overpoweredness of Kajin that was formed more from hearing players bitch than it was from observing the full spectrum of what PK at Kajin entailed. It was like a PDW about Kajin became a regularly occurring meme on narrates, and then people started to believe in it. My main gripe with the changes is Kajin being made stationary. I think Davor does a good job of explaining why.
WEIR:
i do feel Kajin was definitely on the slightly too powerful side, able to dish out a crazy amount of damage in a couple rounds. However, the problem was a happy medium between Kajin and the rest of the mobs dusty. Individual chasing sergeants/soldiers just don't do enough in a lot of situations (but at times are great for close PK) and Kajin is too much.
ERULAK:
Mikhan pretty much nailed it. As annoying as it can be to constantly chase certain people who go there at the drop of a hat, the only overwhelmingly obvious issue with Kajin was how quickly it aggroed compared to other patrols and maybe it was a little too dead-end-y for actually sustaining PK.
SARRYN:
Honestly it’s aggro time and mob lvl downed was enough. But high profile DS whined enough and here we are.
MEREN: Davor wrote: ↑
At least with Kajin moving you can seperate them and hope for a kill or two.
This was what made it so undesirable to fight at as DS. It's what created the "they've gone Kajin for free kills" attitude, that I often share. It created PK where even a person outnumbered 4-1 or worse was still in control, as you couldn't be blocked for and hit. So making him not move tries to address some of this, it seems.
Kajin was a terrible experience for absers on dark side more than it was painful for remorts, myrddraals, or darkfriends. If you ever killed a remort or a high end dodger at Kajin it was generally because they killed their entire team before they died. Kajin was often free kills, but never for killing people who wouldn't die anyway. You could win 5v1 with good Kajin use, dodge, and high wil. You might not always get a kill, but it would be likely that you would get at least one, and unlikely that you would die before you went into Fal Dara to drop fleelag.
No matter which side you played though, RNG did more of the work than you did getting a kill or dying. If 9 times out of 10 this means you get a kill then you probably dislike this change. But, if it meant that 9 times out of 10 you died near Kajin, you probably like this change.
NO CHANNELS:
EOL:
Removing the Orchard No channel. I sort of suspect we're going to miss this room. I love the stedding, do enjoy playing an FC, but also recognize FCs are awful/need coding change. Having limited rooms creates all manner of strategery, focus just like having limited no hides and no rides and what not. That created a focal and important room for darkside to stop at without going blight. Stedding is great but from a dynamic gameplay perspective it entirely shuts down a class. We wouldn't create an entire zone that is no hide. Its there, it isn't going anywhere, but we should still have limited no channels and there is value in placing them in such a way that darkside doesn't run directly to Blight.
SARRYN:
Revert the no channel changes to as they were before.
Surprisingly, the no_channel in forested blands and on winding remained in place, but wasn't noticed because no one used them as they should have been modified to no fire or no water. These fixes are in place, but it pushes back to an earlier point around assumptions. It's not fun to have your whole class cut off by a single room, but will you sacrifice great practices to get a weave that does damage around these restrictions?
STEDDING:
EOL:
Tunnel ogier are aggro to humans. Ogier spirits are not aggro to trolls. Not saying any of these should be changed. Just stating that as an observation.
Overall Stedding. Damn! Feels a bit empty without all the nuisance aggro stuff removed. Spent forever here in the past chasing Axo screaming about being haggard or getting aggroed by stupid small stuff. It wasn't mentioned but one of the most problematic mobs in this zone are the worm load just below downer. I've seen some fights become very unpredictable when 3 worms appear. Could we get some small non-aggro food mobs added ie. some sort of deer/stags/whatever?
New troll camp Stedding. Well I like the rooms being put to use. Not quite sure what to make of it. Seems to have 17 mobs which is more than I initially thought it would have (making it very similar to camp which I think has like 17-19). 2 exits is obviously similar to TS and obviously one of the exits is new which will cause people to be careful running to sted from Blight. Its somewhat chokey which is nice. Earlier I discussed the idea of walking past mobs that are insufficient. I think there will be situations where people will think its too weak (maybe vs warders and if camp is too weak then this must be too weak too by comparison) but its otherwise this is a high number count area to also be no channel. It could be overly popular. Its not like its a big Hike from Blight. I think if you start seeing trolls constantly regrouping Stedding rather than Blight you're going to know you have a problem. If the entirety of camp was no channel do you think trolls would be there all the time?
Fixed elder spirits to aggro dark side as intended. The tunnel ogier are overall strange. I don't know their original intent, but they're aggroes in the only channelable area right now.
The biggest gap I've noticed so far with stedding is mob-damage output. I've swapped to a higher dmg staff equivalent to the weapon of Kajin's lancers. This should raise the value of losing hit points there.
I haven't removed the amount of worms, but I've moved their loads from a single room. to multiples.
Added four blighted deer around the zone and two stags.
Both fades in the trolloc camp are stationary. The patrol isn't entirely strong and it's easy to clear around both of them. We'll see if it becomes an issue, but it looks relatively weak. Probably biggest annoyance is once again you've got two troll mobs loading in a door which will catch someone who doesn't know off guard.
DARK FOREST:
EOL:
I said this to someone forever ago - remove Shrubbery tunnels. Keep shrubbery door but make it scannable. Put a CTF inside. I've never seen in this game a door patrol that either side could use. Would definitely be a different dynamic since in most cases for this game certain areas are loved by 1 side, hated by the other and there's no middleground. A CTF patrol opens an area up to being used by both sides.
It's an idea. It's sad how little use those tunnels get. Could be worth doing this and making that area of DF chokier.
RAGAN:
When humans retreat they have a stationary point at Ragan. One of those two locations of Ragan (orchard) is more ideal than the other making it of limited use. As Eol pointed out, stationary patrols are not the best support. They are useful when the numbers are very limited and its 1v2 or 2v2 with someone being very low. Once numbers get to 3v1, no stationary patrol is going to be helpful. Unless that 1 solo player is a 160 db stabber/piercer and the 3 opponents are all absers. A relatively rare occurrence, even then he will likely lose.
I agree that Ragan might be valuable aligned to one location as opposed to two. Some of the issues with Ragan gap have already been mentioned, but the fact that 2/3 of the LS patrols end up aligned with single room entrances is problematic. The last time I adjusted these areas included giving winding commander some room to move around. This ended up being used to split the smob and for thieves to solo it. Often, a lot of the adjustments that seem good for overall game experience are removed because of individuals taking advantage of it. We've thought about this, along with adjustments to camp.
GAP:
EOL:
Gap fade patrol roams an enormous area.
Noted.
ORCHARD:
EOL:
I think there's still a DT over next to Orchard patty. If the N-LS DT was removed to prevent people from suiciding to screw their opponent then - just saying.
Removed.
LOCKSHEAR:
VANNOR:
Lockshear is an odd zone too, having been spending a decent amount of time there, and a few PK sessions. It just overall feels weird to fight in, but I think that Eols point about mob support being behind doors dictates to a fairly high degree as to what will/won't be used. Referencing DS support here as tunnels/Ilsae, and as a sidenote making the rooms in the 'city' flagged as outside for tracks is an interesting low-key change that hurts DS and mostly benefits certain players that we're banned from discussing on forums.
I will say in general it's easier to read feedback and take it seriously when it doesn't sound like a conspiracy.
LAST STANDS:
VANNOR:
Kajin fills the niche as 'last stand for LS' before Fal Dara, that's a good thing as opposed to sitting in the city. Blight is kind of the same for DS. The problem really was it was just fight trolls a bit and then head to Kajin hoping to bait them there to hit out of boredom for relatively easy kills. This succeeded with amazing consistency.
DAVOR:
Now we get to Kajin and dusty road. The last place LS can put up a fight before going in. This zone is already naturally set up for 1v1, 2v1, 3v1, 4v2, 10v5..etc. You have sergeants that don't move to campsite area. You have soldiers in Pittrap. You have Kajin. You have elite mobs/random mobs in tower and you have a patrol in the Woods area. Kajin moves so his usefulness also dynamically changes from a Ragan/Commander situation at 1n Pittrap or where it currently is situated versus a more dynamic usefulness where he chases or is in a multi exit room. His chasing is also the only thing that can turn around a fight, you can't have a stationary patrol - ESPECIALLY in it's current place and expect any changes in the fight. You will widdle down your opponents HPs and it will still be 10v5 and you will lose a straight up fight. At least with Kajin moving you can seperate them and hope for a kill or two.
MIKHAN:
You know how Eol mentions players walking past viable mob support without using it? Yes, this is a common occurrence. You know what is (or was?!) also a common occurrence? DS players not chasing to or hitting dusty with 3v1, 4v1, or sometimes even greater odds. Sometimes against a solo ABSer. This was typically in situations where players who favor vulture strategies are looking for easy kills. At (old) dusty, a chasing Kajin would even things out a little bit so there was an actual risk of death to DS. Ironically, it became popular on DS to "call out" an outnumbered human or two running to Kajin as players "looking for easy kills" (this is not to be confused with a big human group losing a fight at a patrol in the Blight and immediately scattering to regroup way down at Kajin). Sometimes this would just fracture a DS group, so that only 1 or 2 chased to dusty, and eventually PK would resume there with more balanced odds, often at the sergeants N of burnt -- a fine outcome. At other times, you'd think only a few DS had chased, until they got low and changed places with the other trolls blocking burnt and 2n2e and then you were toast. And at other times there would be 6 or 7 or the sergeant would bellow about a Dreadlord and unless you got good flees, you were fucked -- you'd boxed yourself into a chokey situation with little prospect of survival. But anyways, my point here is that I disagree with Vannor's assertion that (old) Kajin was this thing that was mainly used for easy kills. I see Kajin as this thing that made easy kills not as easy, and gave humans a chance of getting a kill when they couldn't otherwise -- something that at its best turned a LS suicide situation into a risky PK situation, and a DS easy-kill situation into something you had to be more careful about. Outnumbered LS died regularly at Kajin, not infrequently in full-sweeps. DS died regularly at Kajin, too. In my view this was a good state of affairs.
I acknowledge this as well. I don't think your perspectives are mutually exclusive. Comparatively, though, I will say that Fal Dara is weaker than old Kajin. Are gate defenses the biggest deterrent to Fal Dara?
HOLIDAY ZONE:
General consensus: too many escapes and too many connections
Holiday zone will be removed tomorrow after reboot.
SARRYN:
Thanks for the ideas.
HARUN:
I don't think it's necessary for Kajin to be stationary, and it probably would be okay to lower his mob levels a little bit.
EOL:
The somewhat "dream" of dusty mob support was to have an area where a human could flee around and force trolls to find mobs in connecting rooms much like Blight at times has high mob density.
DAVOR:
What you could do with the current Kajin location (if you demanded it had to be stationary) is move him to the center of the campsite and remove the connecting zone to Pittrap, or make it between two doors at the opposite ends of the connection. So then you could actually split up DS when they have so many numbers and maybe make small hits N/NE/E of Kajin as they flee..this would set up something similar to Ragan in Orch where E/S flees are relatively bad for DS and LS can make small forrays into widdling down split group members. I am still against him being stationary, but this location would work far better than its current dead end one.
Kajin was hunting pretty efficiently. This, along with the choky area, and the extra mobs north of burnt gave a substantial benefit to light side and a disproportionately good position for high wil combo or dodge characters to kill trollocs, particularly absers. The scenarios I am reading are generally from the perspective of players who would like to play and profit against larger numbers. Kajin hunting made it worth your time to sit there on a dodger or combo user because Kajin could get kills. It rarely took more effort than spamming to profit in these scenarios. Kajin's aggro at 100% was put into play in 2016, so it's not new. It's removal along with the stationary position of Kajin makes Kajin feel a lot worse.
Downing the levels or removing extra mobs from him would only give a weaker version of the existing problem that Kajin was relatively low risk for a small number of players to use and a last resort for group play which led to more toxicity than actual combat.
LS MOB SUPPORT:
HARUN:
LS mob support up north has always been terrible for both sides, so I'm glad to see some experimenting - especially when Feneon seems vigilant enough to modify tests that are clearly not working. The stedding changes have been really fun so far. It seems like both sides can push it harder in Treesinger.
EOL:
1. The Tower location probably made zero sense for Kajin. My intial feeling was - ugh, being mounted above a no-ride will suck. But when I considered the benefits of dismounting. Trolls will have 2 flees where they will have to walk past Kajin. A human who flees up can try to rally at elites. A human who dismounts can't be smelled so trolls will have to scout or track or something. A lot of things we could say but it probably didn't fit the mold of making it less dangerous for all.
2. I'm going to bring this foward and my hope is that it stays but maybe it is unintended. When the soldiers were removed from the pittrap it seems the soldier zone count was left the same. So now the soldiers load in the forest area around the "Woods". My personal hope is they will stay there creating an area of non-dense but available low level support. The sergeant in this area continues to load naked.
MIKHAN:
Now, sometimes you'd have a sort of even fight at dusty, and when you hit Kajin pukes would swarm out of FD who hadn't been PKing until this point. That is the type of situation where Kajin felt the most overpowered and unnecessary to people playing on DS. And I sympathize, having been there many times myself, but I don't think that problem is so much a problem with Kajin.
EOL:
Dusty Tower. Sadly, the Kajin move there reinforces just how difficult it is to find a purpose for this old relic. The rogue practice has been moved into FD for anyone who didn't notice.
Tower is probably nostalgic from when Kajin and Ragan were dusty and split between the two areas. For now the Tower is rideable, but no mob adjustments are being made. It won't make a difference unless things on that side of the zone change.
I fixed the sergeant load on dusty. Let me know if this continues to be an issue. Those will continue to be there.
The point Mikhan makes is one that we can't control. While the sergeants (and soldiers) in Kajin area can walk from 2n 2e 2n to 1e no-mob, all north from there and use the side path, this gives dark side two paths to escape the area that don't include fast aggroing mobs. I think the issue you mentioned was compounded significantly by Kajin tracking and roaming. The sergeants also gave a lot of impunity to the same characters above who could bypass chokey areas without forcing them simply by waiting for mob aggro to build in their favor. A trolloc with enough fleelag will never effectively block you.
DUSTY CONNECTION TO KAJIN:
DAVOR:
Now the connection between campsite and pittrap area. I mean what is the point? So no one ever dies? yes it was a chokey area, big chortlesnorfling deal, thats the dice. You go there or flee there you die. There isnt a free get out of jail card every time. It is already insanely easy to run and flee. At this point why not add a connection from campsite to above winding choke? Or remove DF choke and make it a square. Remove every chokey zone in the game.
This change was a tremendous benefit to DS and I find it stupid. The side is already 90% remorts and easy mode dung stain rogues.
ERULAK:
So I actually don't mind the new room/connection. That connection can mitigate for some of the 'flock out of FD' or 'DS hits with a dung-ton' situations all the same, but the stationary Kajin feels like an overcorrection that makes the the patrol kind of worthless outside of situations where you can just stand in one room (which is not when a patrol that strong should be getting used). I think it'd be worth considering a mobile Kajin that can move around the loop from 1e No Mob to Pit Trap to the New Room to Campsite.
The biggest people who will benefit from this change are trolloc absers. Remorts and rogues, while an issue, will benefit more, but the aim is to benefit trolloc absers. With the stationary location Kajin is not going to rescue an engagement while you flee around. The extra path will be useful if you should choose to use Kajin in its current form. Mobs being able to go to either side of Kajin will help build up reinforcements. Likely the biggest issue there is that most groups just clear mobs progressively to get a player into a worse and worse situation.
PITTRAP:
DETRITUS:
Static mobs are terrible, pittrap door full of mobs is terrible.
HARUN:
I also don't think the ramshorned are necessary, but I haven't seen them get used at all yet. One of those situations where they're probably always going to be too strong or too weak.
EOL:
1. The soldiers in the pittrap - maybe I'm not being very imaginative - but they were one of the few human patrols in a door that I am aware of. Not asking someone to make a list or a who has what. Just saying human patrols are usually out in the open and trolls are more likely to be in doors as a general rule. So really this is probably what Davor is most salty about and yes, Harun beat me to posting this joke.
2. I sort of feel Davor on the idea of - why did trolls need to have mob support dusty. That said, human mob support is more generous than it was historically so I'm open to possibilities. My question though is - will it actually get used. Obviously we know it will, but I want to make a small point. I played a lot of darkside awhile back and trolls and humans both are more than capable of walking past viable mob support and not using it. Humans will run past Commander to Kajin. Trolls will go straight from dusty to DF to Blight skipping Camp. And don't bother ever asking a troll to use FD fade. Regardless of the utility of certain patrols there is still often this player driven perception that certain areas are worthless or that opposing players can easily overcome the advantage of them. The reality of this is probably mixed and leans towards players needing to give it a try.
DAVOR:
And yes, pittrap has been a wonderful pit of both great glory for me and pain. It is fundamentally a part of my game because the only reason I get 60+ search on my characters is so I can open it - true story. But seriously, dusty is a beautifully designed zone and the mob dynamics are the last bastion for LS to put up a fight. I anticipate PK just ending now as it did last night. I didn't even try or want to try. Why sit at stationary Kajin while 9 DS wail on you? No point, no chance to win, no chance to even it so no chance I will play it. If I wanted that I would sit Commander - the flees are better if I need to leave. It's also more powerful.
If this change stands we should make all Blight patrols stationary. We should get 4 soldiers in fencegate in the Blight and do some more stupid stuff as well.
Still are 5 soldiers in the zone. We had originally thought the ramshorned would provide use. Overall, though, if they got use in pittrap it would likely be to frustrate an individual and not a group. The ramshorned have been removed. In part Detritus is right, there are a lot of areas that you can use before you get to Kajin or Blight, but player expectations of the experience fast-forward them. Winding is a good PK zone, but the amount of 'I know what will happen if' that goes into play generally leaves LS booking it for Kajin and DS skipping shiverings, CTF, or kno'mon for blight.
KAJIN:
DETRITUS:
Could just swap kajin and blands patrol so that kajin the smob stays in the football field blands without needing to nerf and dusty gets a weaker but still impactful patrol that can track around.
VANNOR:
I would've thought a general downing of that smob and maybe slightly upping commie would have been the fix, but looks like imms are trying out a few different things with it. This is ok, and if anyone disagrees I'd like to see the arguments for why Kajin should have remained the way it was.
MIKHAN:
I don't think these changes were necessary or good for PK. My hunch is that they were made in response to a perceived overpoweredness of Kajin that was formed more from hearing players bitch than it was from observing the full spectrum of what PK at Kajin entailed. It was like a PDW about Kajin became a regularly occurring meme on narrates, and then people started to believe in it. My main gripe with the changes is Kajin being made stationary. I think Davor does a good job of explaining why.
WEIR:
i do feel Kajin was definitely on the slightly too powerful side, able to dish out a crazy amount of damage in a couple rounds. However, the problem was a happy medium between Kajin and the rest of the mobs dusty. Individual chasing sergeants/soldiers just don't do enough in a lot of situations (but at times are great for close PK) and Kajin is too much.
ERULAK:
Mikhan pretty much nailed it. As annoying as it can be to constantly chase certain people who go there at the drop of a hat, the only overwhelmingly obvious issue with Kajin was how quickly it aggroed compared to other patrols and maybe it was a little too dead-end-y for actually sustaining PK.
SARRYN:
Honestly it’s aggro time and mob lvl downed was enough. But high profile DS whined enough and here we are.
MEREN: Davor wrote: ↑
At least with Kajin moving you can seperate them and hope for a kill or two.
This was what made it so undesirable to fight at as DS. It's what created the "they've gone Kajin for free kills" attitude, that I often share. It created PK where even a person outnumbered 4-1 or worse was still in control, as you couldn't be blocked for and hit. So making him not move tries to address some of this, it seems.
Kajin was a terrible experience for absers on dark side more than it was painful for remorts, myrddraals, or darkfriends. If you ever killed a remort or a high end dodger at Kajin it was generally because they killed their entire team before they died. Kajin was often free kills, but never for killing people who wouldn't die anyway. You could win 5v1 with good Kajin use, dodge, and high wil. You might not always get a kill, but it would be likely that you would get at least one, and unlikely that you would die before you went into Fal Dara to drop fleelag.
No matter which side you played though, RNG did more of the work than you did getting a kill or dying. If 9 times out of 10 this means you get a kill then you probably dislike this change. But, if it meant that 9 times out of 10 you died near Kajin, you probably like this change.
NO CHANNELS:
EOL:
Removing the Orchard No channel. I sort of suspect we're going to miss this room. I love the stedding, do enjoy playing an FC, but also recognize FCs are awful/need coding change. Having limited rooms creates all manner of strategery, focus just like having limited no hides and no rides and what not. That created a focal and important room for darkside to stop at without going blight. Stedding is great but from a dynamic gameplay perspective it entirely shuts down a class. We wouldn't create an entire zone that is no hide. Its there, it isn't going anywhere, but we should still have limited no channels and there is value in placing them in such a way that darkside doesn't run directly to Blight.
SARRYN:
Revert the no channel changes to as they were before.
Surprisingly, the no_channel in forested blands and on winding remained in place, but wasn't noticed because no one used them as they should have been modified to no fire or no water. These fixes are in place, but it pushes back to an earlier point around assumptions. It's not fun to have your whole class cut off by a single room, but will you sacrifice great practices to get a weave that does damage around these restrictions?
STEDDING:
EOL:
Tunnel ogier are aggro to humans. Ogier spirits are not aggro to trolls. Not saying any of these should be changed. Just stating that as an observation.
Overall Stedding. Damn! Feels a bit empty without all the nuisance aggro stuff removed. Spent forever here in the past chasing Axo screaming about being haggard or getting aggroed by stupid small stuff. It wasn't mentioned but one of the most problematic mobs in this zone are the worm load just below downer. I've seen some fights become very unpredictable when 3 worms appear. Could we get some small non-aggro food mobs added ie. some sort of deer/stags/whatever?
New troll camp Stedding. Well I like the rooms being put to use. Not quite sure what to make of it. Seems to have 17 mobs which is more than I initially thought it would have (making it very similar to camp which I think has like 17-19). 2 exits is obviously similar to TS and obviously one of the exits is new which will cause people to be careful running to sted from Blight. Its somewhat chokey which is nice. Earlier I discussed the idea of walking past mobs that are insufficient. I think there will be situations where people will think its too weak (maybe vs warders and if camp is too weak then this must be too weak too by comparison) but its otherwise this is a high number count area to also be no channel. It could be overly popular. Its not like its a big Hike from Blight. I think if you start seeing trolls constantly regrouping Stedding rather than Blight you're going to know you have a problem. If the entirety of camp was no channel do you think trolls would be there all the time?
Fixed elder spirits to aggro dark side as intended. The tunnel ogier are overall strange. I don't know their original intent, but they're aggroes in the only channelable area right now.
The biggest gap I've noticed so far with stedding is mob-damage output. I've swapped to a higher dmg staff equivalent to the weapon of Kajin's lancers. This should raise the value of losing hit points there.
I haven't removed the amount of worms, but I've moved their loads from a single room. to multiples.
Added four blighted deer around the zone and two stags.
Both fades in the trolloc camp are stationary. The patrol isn't entirely strong and it's easy to clear around both of them. We'll see if it becomes an issue, but it looks relatively weak. Probably biggest annoyance is once again you've got two troll mobs loading in a door which will catch someone who doesn't know off guard.
DARK FOREST:
EOL:
I said this to someone forever ago - remove Shrubbery tunnels. Keep shrubbery door but make it scannable. Put a CTF inside. I've never seen in this game a door patrol that either side could use. Would definitely be a different dynamic since in most cases for this game certain areas are loved by 1 side, hated by the other and there's no middleground. A CTF patrol opens an area up to being used by both sides.
It's an idea. It's sad how little use those tunnels get. Could be worth doing this and making that area of DF chokier.
RAGAN:
When humans retreat they have a stationary point at Ragan. One of those two locations of Ragan (orchard) is more ideal than the other making it of limited use. As Eol pointed out, stationary patrols are not the best support. They are useful when the numbers are very limited and its 1v2 or 2v2 with someone being very low. Once numbers get to 3v1, no stationary patrol is going to be helpful. Unless that 1 solo player is a 160 db stabber/piercer and the 3 opponents are all absers. A relatively rare occurrence, even then he will likely lose.
I agree that Ragan might be valuable aligned to one location as opposed to two. Some of the issues with Ragan gap have already been mentioned, but the fact that 2/3 of the LS patrols end up aligned with single room entrances is problematic. The last time I adjusted these areas included giving winding commander some room to move around. This ended up being used to split the smob and for thieves to solo it. Often, a lot of the adjustments that seem good for overall game experience are removed because of individuals taking advantage of it. We've thought about this, along with adjustments to camp.
GAP:
EOL:
Gap fade patrol roams an enormous area.
Noted.
ORCHARD:
EOL:
I think there's still a DT over next to Orchard patty. If the N-LS DT was removed to prevent people from suiciding to screw their opponent then - just saying.
Removed.
LOCKSHEAR:
VANNOR:
Lockshear is an odd zone too, having been spending a decent amount of time there, and a few PK sessions. It just overall feels weird to fight in, but I think that Eols point about mob support being behind doors dictates to a fairly high degree as to what will/won't be used. Referencing DS support here as tunnels/Ilsae, and as a sidenote making the rooms in the 'city' flagged as outside for tracks is an interesting low-key change that hurts DS and mostly benefits certain players that we're banned from discussing on forums.
I will say in general it's easier to read feedback and take it seriously when it doesn't sound like a conspiracy.
LAST STANDS:
VANNOR:
Kajin fills the niche as 'last stand for LS' before Fal Dara, that's a good thing as opposed to sitting in the city. Blight is kind of the same for DS. The problem really was it was just fight trolls a bit and then head to Kajin hoping to bait them there to hit out of boredom for relatively easy kills. This succeeded with amazing consistency.
DAVOR:
Now we get to Kajin and dusty road. The last place LS can put up a fight before going in. This zone is already naturally set up for 1v1, 2v1, 3v1, 4v2, 10v5..etc. You have sergeants that don't move to campsite area. You have soldiers in Pittrap. You have Kajin. You have elite mobs/random mobs in tower and you have a patrol in the Woods area. Kajin moves so his usefulness also dynamically changes from a Ragan/Commander situation at 1n Pittrap or where it currently is situated versus a more dynamic usefulness where he chases or is in a multi exit room. His chasing is also the only thing that can turn around a fight, you can't have a stationary patrol - ESPECIALLY in it's current place and expect any changes in the fight. You will widdle down your opponents HPs and it will still be 10v5 and you will lose a straight up fight. At least with Kajin moving you can seperate them and hope for a kill or two.
MIKHAN:
You know how Eol mentions players walking past viable mob support without using it? Yes, this is a common occurrence. You know what is (or was?!) also a common occurrence? DS players not chasing to or hitting dusty with 3v1, 4v1, or sometimes even greater odds. Sometimes against a solo ABSer. This was typically in situations where players who favor vulture strategies are looking for easy kills. At (old) dusty, a chasing Kajin would even things out a little bit so there was an actual risk of death to DS. Ironically, it became popular on DS to "call out" an outnumbered human or two running to Kajin as players "looking for easy kills" (this is not to be confused with a big human group losing a fight at a patrol in the Blight and immediately scattering to regroup way down at Kajin). Sometimes this would just fracture a DS group, so that only 1 or 2 chased to dusty, and eventually PK would resume there with more balanced odds, often at the sergeants N of burnt -- a fine outcome. At other times, you'd think only a few DS had chased, until they got low and changed places with the other trolls blocking burnt and 2n2e and then you were toast. And at other times there would be 6 or 7 or the sergeant would bellow about a Dreadlord and unless you got good flees, you were fucked -- you'd boxed yourself into a chokey situation with little prospect of survival. But anyways, my point here is that I disagree with Vannor's assertion that (old) Kajin was this thing that was mainly used for easy kills. I see Kajin as this thing that made easy kills not as easy, and gave humans a chance of getting a kill when they couldn't otherwise -- something that at its best turned a LS suicide situation into a risky PK situation, and a DS easy-kill situation into something you had to be more careful about. Outnumbered LS died regularly at Kajin, not infrequently in full-sweeps. DS died regularly at Kajin, too. In my view this was a good state of affairs.
I acknowledge this as well. I don't think your perspectives are mutually exclusive. Comparatively, though, I will say that Fal Dara is weaker than old Kajin. Are gate defenses the biggest deterrent to Fal Dara?
HOLIDAY ZONE:
General consensus: too many escapes and too many connections
Holiday zone will be removed tomorrow after reboot.
SARRYN:
Thanks for the ideas.
Re: North PK related changes
Just sorta loosely been following this thread, just wanted to say big respect to Fen on the post here. Probably one of the best staff responses I have seen to any player driven discussion forum in 2 decades. Thanks.
Re: North PK related changes
Love the feedback/interaction as foil said.
Lockshear has always been problematic to fight in because of the trillion doors, removal of north gate was great, change of outer to trackable was good, other changes just seemed odd. Human trollocs with outdoor scan break a lot of good zone designs.
Is antistab code(like ragan/lockshear commander) attatched to room or mob?
I didn't think of it, if it has to be tagged in room not on mob then my idea of swapping Kajin with blands patrol is prob a terrible one.
Kajin minions could easily just change what weapon they're using to adjust damage output without needing to nerf levels or dismount them.
No-channels all over the map have always seemed very wierd to me,(wasn't playing when they were first put in) I'm assuming there's no way to code weave damage down with weather flags or anything?
Lockshear has always been problematic to fight in because of the trillion doors, removal of north gate was great, change of outer to trackable was good, other changes just seemed odd. Human trollocs with outdoor scan break a lot of good zone designs.
Is antistab code(like ragan/lockshear commander) attatched to room or mob?
I didn't think of it, if it has to be tagged in room not on mob then my idea of swapping Kajin with blands patrol is prob a terrible one.
Kajin minions could easily just change what weapon they're using to adjust damage output without needing to nerf levels or dismount them.
No-channels all over the map have always seemed very wierd to me,(wasn't playing when they were first put in) I'm assuming there's no way to code weave damage down with weather flags or anything?
Re: North PK related changes
There are so many fundamental aspects of PK and the game that are just being missed by some of the people posting as well as Feneons logic making no sense to me - in regards to his changes.
From what I gather, the changes weren't made by any factual evidence of imbalance but rather whining players and a perceived imbalance that was never based in fact.
Meren's inability to kill someone 4v1 or at least not completely lose means nothing. That is a gross lack of skill and complete foolery if you are losing with these numbers outside of a city. The fundamentals of WoTMUD code and how 2-4 people can engage on players/horses should make this situation almost completely impossible. It seems more likely as Meren suggested, he doesn't like that he has a chance of dying despite having such high odds of winning. He does not like that in a 4v1 situation, that 1 player may have some control or semblance of a chance of a win. I still think this situation makes no sense and is almost always going to be a won by the team with 4. However, his assertion that LS has some semblance of control when they move to Kajin is the precise reason why it needs to remain and the precise reason why it is in most cases used.
When LS has been pushed to dusty, they have either taken a devastating loss or are completely outnumbered. If they have no chance of even putting up a fight or turning the tide - then PK ends. I understand the players complaining about Kajin are typically the ones who don't want any risk and just want easy kills but that is not a reason to change an entire zone or mob support set up. North of Burnt Wagons is not a death trap and there are multiple ways to play it but when you do go there as DS you generally have plenty more numbers than LS, or you are going for a kill on a lower player despite numbers. There is nothing static in PK or mobs or zones. That is literally the beauty of WoTMUD.
The situations of LS running to Kajin then having GANKSQUADomfgALLPLANNED from FD is such a rarity and DS who complain about are chortlesnorfling morons. It is 10000 more likely that the opposite will happen, when humans are up north, that DS will suddenly get reinforcements. It is literally the fundamental fact that 99% of DS rents in Keep and probably 5% of LS rents in FD. In all cases its usually never a plan but likely 1-2 other player just logged on and is coming to help. People like to whine and bitch but other than a few players on Discord who always log on when LS hits keep, there is no grand conspiracy.
Feneon - I don't understand you comparing old Kajin to Fal Dara. That is not even a comparison? Beyond locking gates...the entire city being a choke zone..most trollocs not having enough pick leaving only 2 out of 4 exits viable..multiple doors, multiple non-pkers/support players suddenly jumping in...not to mention the 100x number of mobs? I don't understand why that comparison is even being entertained. Ruined keep gets hit more because it is significantly more open. Plus, LS over the last few years have become less of pussies compared to DS - despite DS gaining an insane amounts of re-morts and bonuses, mostly rogues.
From what I gather, the changes weren't made by any factual evidence of imbalance but rather whining players and a perceived imbalance that was never based in fact.
Meren's inability to kill someone 4v1 or at least not completely lose means nothing. That is a gross lack of skill and complete foolery if you are losing with these numbers outside of a city. The fundamentals of WoTMUD code and how 2-4 people can engage on players/horses should make this situation almost completely impossible. It seems more likely as Meren suggested, he doesn't like that he has a chance of dying despite having such high odds of winning. He does not like that in a 4v1 situation, that 1 player may have some control or semblance of a chance of a win. I still think this situation makes no sense and is almost always going to be a won by the team with 4. However, his assertion that LS has some semblance of control when they move to Kajin is the precise reason why it needs to remain and the precise reason why it is in most cases used.
When LS has been pushed to dusty, they have either taken a devastating loss or are completely outnumbered. If they have no chance of even putting up a fight or turning the tide - then PK ends. I understand the players complaining about Kajin are typically the ones who don't want any risk and just want easy kills but that is not a reason to change an entire zone or mob support set up. North of Burnt Wagons is not a death trap and there are multiple ways to play it but when you do go there as DS you generally have plenty more numbers than LS, or you are going for a kill on a lower player despite numbers. There is nothing static in PK or mobs or zones. That is literally the beauty of WoTMUD.
The situations of LS running to Kajin then having GANKSQUADomfgALLPLANNED from FD is such a rarity and DS who complain about are chortlesnorfling morons. It is 10000 more likely that the opposite will happen, when humans are up north, that DS will suddenly get reinforcements. It is literally the fundamental fact that 99% of DS rents in Keep and probably 5% of LS rents in FD. In all cases its usually never a plan but likely 1-2 other player just logged on and is coming to help. People like to whine and bitch but other than a few players on Discord who always log on when LS hits keep, there is no grand conspiracy.
Feneon - I don't understand you comparing old Kajin to Fal Dara. That is not even a comparison? Beyond locking gates...the entire city being a choke zone..most trollocs not having enough pick leaving only 2 out of 4 exits viable..multiple doors, multiple non-pkers/support players suddenly jumping in...not to mention the 100x number of mobs? I don't understand why that comparison is even being entertained. Ruined keep gets hit more because it is significantly more open. Plus, LS over the last few years have become less of pussies compared to DS - despite DS gaining an insane amounts of re-morts and bonuses, mostly rogues.