The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

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Dinuc
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Dinuc » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:46 pm

isabel wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:37 am
Harry Potter, with a plot that drew heavily on the language of anti-racism, had exactly five students of colour in the original movies, none of them major characters, all of them stereotypes.

Lotr descriptions (replicated in the films):

"In the good corner, the riders of Rohan, aka the "Whiteskins": "Yellow is their hair, and bright are their spears. Their leader is very tall." In the evil corner, the orcs of Isengard: "A grim, dark band... swart, slant-eyed" and the "dark" wild men of the hills. So the good guys are white and the bad guys are, erm... black."

You must be really desensitised if all this - a main cast of "purebloods" was not jarring, but diversity on screen is too much people appeasement. Because people from different races/ethnicities/sexual orientations -shouldnt- see people like themselves on mainstream television?
Harry Potter, how are they stereotypes? Do you point at other minor characters that are white and call them stereotypes too?

LOTR - It is not racism that the evil guys are associated with darkness. People who do bad things wear black to blend it at night. People have nightmares at night in the dark. The unknown is scary and seeing into darkness is scary. But the light illuminates and exposes, it makes things less scary etc.

Characterisation and different looks also helps the audience. In Shadow and Bone they have different nations and ethnicities. And that helps the audience know who is who. There is no racism and people who get offended are choosing to be offended. It is why the Aiel have red hair and why people know Rand is different. It is a narrative device to help tell the story and has nothing to do with trying to stigmatise a persons appearance.

That post is just making up drama. Is the latest episode racist because they are travelling to the dark one's prison? Should the show have called him the Light one, and called the Aes Sedai tower the Dark Tower. Would that be appropriately 'woke'?

There is imagery and themes going on and isn't necessary to call these things out and hurts many other arguments rather than helps them.

As for the casting choices, I am all for representation. And everyone should have an equal shot of getting a part they fit for. But it is possible to go too far with positive discrimination. And at that point it just becomes discrimination. If you watched some US and UK TV you would be very surprised if you looked up the actual ethnic breakdowns of those countries.

Representation and positive discrimination is different. And I wonder if a lot of people praising diversity in these shows even understands the difference.

Katherine
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Katherine » Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:21 pm

asharek wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:48 pm
Yeah I feel bad for you guys trying to attain the shawl in game but now is just attaining the ring based on what Katherine said. Might just be me but going from accepted to sedai, I always think of receiving the shawl first versus the ring. Also, the shawl is a storytelling tool that's becomes an even more of important symbol in later books *schism*. Did they not have an expert that supposedly read the books? On that note, did that person not read up to I don't know where Egwene was against Elaida's idea of using the Oath rod for loyalty compulsion? That scene kinda paints Siuan in a bad light.
This better fall into the no-way-in-hell category of possible upcoming feature changes. ;)

The shawl is a great device to distinguish Aes Sedai for several reasons, at least in my mind. The most important characteristic is that it rests across the shoulders. This is generally known as the "mantle of authority", something that Accepted and nobody else in the world can attain without becoming an Aes Sedai. The Amyrlin Seat trades her shawl for a stole which serves a similar symbolic purpose, showing her authority over all Aes Sedai. Even in RL, women of wealth and power sometimes wear a shawl to formal events. Depending your taste in style and fashion and how its worn and cut, a shawl could represent sophistication and power. Rings also have this purpose, but its not nearly as visible, especially a rock inside of a ring so that its barely even visible at all.

The screenwriters are reading the books and they are supposed to be advised by Sanderson, but there is definitely a lot of needless modifications to RJ's design that I think reflects the writers' vanity more than anything that adds value on screen. That's just my opinion anyways.
I was confused by this.. did Moraine enter Tel'aran'rhiod via gateway while channeling into a ter'angrael or was she asleep and thats how they showed her enter it?
A ter'angreal into the dream world makes 100% book sense and would get the audience used to the idea that dreams are a kind of reality in WoT beyond what characters like Rand, Matt and Perrin experience in their dreams with Balzamon. A gate ter'angreal would also be book accurate except its not in this instance and gate angreal are supposed to be rather rare and large in that characters have to physically step through them. But hell, at this point, why not? This is another lost opportunity and an unnecessary modification of RJ's general design by the writers.

Fuujin
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Fuujin » Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:56 pm

Dinuc wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:25 pm
Fuujin wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:10 am
Spare me the fake tears, I never called -you- ignorant. I said the show is depicting the aforementioned things with 'a little more tact and a little less ignorance than what RJ wrote'.
And he said the show should have been created as RJ wrote it so by association it is also calling him ignorant.

I don't remember the books enough to figure out what exactly RJ wrote that was ignorant...
if i criticize RJ and someone wants to jump in front of a dead man to shield him from the criticism-bullet, honestly, that's between them and their therapist. But i didn't call him ignorant and that's that.

Fuujin
Posts: 390
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Fuujin » Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:10 am

Dinuc wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:46 pm


Harry Potter, how are they stereotypes? Do you point at other minor characters that are white and call them stereotypes too?

What makes a character a stereotype isn't that they're minor character. It's when baseless generalizations, rooted in ignorance and often bigotry, are used to define a character's existence in the plot. It's when you have characters with names like Luna Lovegood and Nymphadora Tonks and all manners of inventive and interesting names in the wizarding world and then you write the one Asian character in the entire series and name her "Cho Chang" - literally just two Korean surnames shoved together in the most pathetic attempt at introducing diversity. I mean, ffs, there's so little diversity in HP she would have been better off not including the ~5 black and brown characters she wrote it so in the least as to not do people like me the disservice of being represented by such a shitty authorship.
That post is just making up drama. Is the latest episode racist because they are traveling to the dark one's prison? Should the show have called him the Light one, and called the Aes Sedai tower the Dark Tower. Would that be appropriately 'woke'?
Just because you may not be affected by racism or sexism or bigotry in any meaningful or tangible way doesn't mean it's "drama" when those of us who are affected by it daily do bring it up and call it out. And you clearly do not understand racism for you to be making obtuse statements like this. No it's not racist to have the evil god called the "Dark One". There's a difference between calling an immortal source of evil "Dark One" and inventing an entire race of people, saying they're all evil, and also all of them are black or 'dark skinned'. There's a huge difference between calling a building 'The White Tower' and painting all the white people in the story as exceptionally good and heroic. The 'White/Light/Good vs Black/Dark/Evil' dichotomy isn't inherently racist. It's a common motif that exists in many cultures. But when a white author from a predominantly white country chooses to depict -white people- as good and -black people- as evil, that is racist.

Characterisation and different looks also helps the audience. In Shadow and Bone they have different nations and ethnicities. And that helps the audience know who is who. There is no racism and people who get offended are choosing to be offended. It is why the Aiel have red hair and why people know Rand is different. It is a narrative device to help tell the story and has nothing to do with trying to stigmatize a persons appearance.
It is no accident when a white author pens a story where all the good people are white and all the evil people are black or dark skinned or otherwise coded as being non-white like Tolkein did, as Isabel pointed out.

Also, just because a show may not depict acts of racism, doesn't mean that it can't be racist. We do not live in a vacuum. Our works of art are not divorced from the real world politics and ideologies that envelop them, no matter how much someone may try to pretend it's so. There is always a dialogue that is happening between those who make the art and those who view the art and we don't engage with a blank slate. And when an author, intentionally or not, injects their prejudices and biases into their work and people read that without a critical eye, they risk being infected with those same prejudices.

And if black people are taking offense to the way in which black people are being depicted, people who aren't black don't get to turn to us and say "You're choosing to be offended." It's honestly a pathetic and patronizing argument to look at a people who are saying they're hurt by a thing, that they take legitimate offense to something, and tell them they're simply "choosing" to be hurt or offended. Because I'll tell you what: I don't ever choose to be offended. You may lack the fundamental level of understanding or empathy to be able to grasp why we're offended, but that is a failing on your part and not on those of us who take offense.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/two ... a-n1240438

And are you really going to sit here and tell the ~80% of black respondents who feel the media negatively portrays us that we're all just 'looking to take offense'. How many people is it going to take for you to believe them when they say that a thing hurts them or is offensive to them? Do you even have a concept of what it would take for you to believe someone when they say they're hurt or is it only your feelings which determine whether someone could or should even be upset?
If you watched some US and UK TV you would be very surprised if you looked up the actual ethnic breakdowns of those countries.
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/ ... e-and-male

US Women make up ~50% of the population, in the US minorities make up ~30%. There is not proportional representation in front of the camera. And behind the camera? The people who write the shows and determines what gets viewed and what makes it on air? That is still overwhelmingly white and male and is equally, if not more so, as big of an issue as the lack of diversity in front of the camera. We may have come a long way from where we were ten years ago or twenty years ago, but we're still not there yet and its pathetic the way people kick and scream because diversity and equality means they lose out on the unfair advantages and over-representation they've enjoyed for so long.
Representation and positive discrimination is different. And I wonder if a lot of people praising diversity in these shows even understands the difference.
White people, white men in particular, have been over-represented at every level and in every sphere of US/European societies for centuries. You're panicking at the possibility that in 2022 non-white people might, for once, be slightly over-represented in the media (which says nothing of all the other places where we still remain grossly under-represented) as if that even begins to make up for the white supremacy, racism, sexism, et al which has ensured that minorities were under-represented all this time. If the next ten years of US media only hired black people for every role it still wouldn't make up for the past 100 years in which white people were purposefully, and with malice, over-represented. Representation is important, but you cannot pretend that after hundreds of years of inequality that simply flipping the switches so things are now "equal" that that makes up or addresses decade after decade of harm. That's not how dung works.

Dinuc
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Dinuc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:00 am

Fuujin wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:10 am
What makes a character a stereotype isn't that they're minor character. It's when baseless generalizations, rooted in ignorance and often bigotry, are used to define a character's existence in the plot. It's when you have characters with names like Luna Lovegood and Nymphadora Tonks and all manners of inventive and interesting names in the wizarding world and then you write the one Asian character in the entire series and name her "Cho Chang" - literally just two Korean surnames shoved together in the most pathetic attempt at introducing diversity.
You should just accept that you can be correct about these issues, but wrong about the criticism levelled at certain things and where these issues exist and how to fix them. HP is not racist. There is nothing wrong with the name Cho Chang. It is Isabel's preference that there is better representation in HP, but just because there isn't that doesn't mean there is a problem with HP.

To quote a website after googling: "I won’t discuss JKR because it isn’t the point of this post. All I’d like to talk about is whether it’s fair to call Cho Chang a racist stereotype. My short answer is no. If Cho Chang, like Katie, comes from a Hong Kong Cantonese-speaking family, “Cho” would’ve been a phonetically-perfect romanisation of her surname if her surname is 曹. Not only that, but she’d also have had a common romanisation of her surname—not an outlier at all."

And if you are correct and is supposed to be Korean, then even googling those names they are okay in Korea too. Having a weird name is not racist.
and inventing an entire race of people, saying they're all evil, and also all of them are black or 'dark skinned'.
It is fantasy with orcs and stuff. Lighten up. Just because a movie has only 1 female character, and that female character is evil, that is not the movie telling the audience that all females are evil. Use some common sense logic.
And when an author, intentionally or not, injects their prejudices and biases into their work and people read that without a critical eye, they risk being infected with those same prejudices.
Yes but you should be correct that the show is correctly depicting racism. And not making it up to get offended like about Cho Chang. There are lots of characters that are poorly written, just because the character is asian that doesn't make it racism...
And if black people are taking offense to the way in which black people are being depicted, people who aren't black don't get to turn to us and say "You're choosing to be offended."
Yes it happens, but how about bring up actual examples and how they are applicable to the WoT instead of HP and LoTR lol. And also attacking anyone that claims the Emond's field in the show was immersion breaking because it ruins a device in the story about Rand and his backstory. I couldn't care less if everyone in Emond's field is black, as long as Rand is noticeably different.
US Women make up ~50% of the population, in the US minorities make up ~30%. There is not proportional representation in front of the camera. And behind the camera? The people who write the shows and determines what gets viewed and what makes it on air? That is still overwhelmingly white and male and is equally, if not more so, as big of an issue as the lack of diversity in front of the camera. We may have come a long way from where we were ten years ago or twenty years ago, but we're still not there yet and its pathetic the way people kick and scream because diversity and equality means they lose out on the unfair advantages and over-representation they've enjoyed for so long.
Welcome to the real world. Eliminating these issues is about making equal opportunities going forward, and where prejudice exists, then affirmative action can help to eliminate that racism. But the deliberate allocation of roles based on skin colour or gender to achieve some percentage or payback, is insane and archaic and yes racist. You cannot condemn racism in some forms but promote it in other forms. It should be eliminated in all forms.
You're panicking at the possibility that in 2022 non-white people might, for once, be slightly over-represented in the media (which says nothing of all the other places where we still remain grossly under-represented) as if that even begins to make up for the white supremacy, racism, sexism, et al which has ensured that minorities were under-represented all this time. If the next ten years of US media only hired black people for every role it still wouldn't make up for the past 100 years in which white people were purposefully, and with malice, over-represented.
Please only take my posts for what I say and don't make up rubbish. I watch shows from every country, I couldn't care less about representation for myself, but I do understand it is important for children growing up. But this post does show a complete lack of understanding on how fair and equal systems should be implemented. And the issues and problems with racism and discrimination.

I don't usually call out shows for diversity casting, because yes some diversity is good, and knowing statistics it is entirely probable that any number of diverse characters can be casted, depending on chance or acting skill etc etc. But there are some shows where the diversity is so perfect that you do wonder if they just casted based on making a skin colour rainbow. Looking at The Irregulars....

I don't really have a problem with WoT diversity apart from the Rand issue and these small towns supposed to be small towns... But the show is filmed in Prague isn't it? I wonder how many of the actors and extras are local?
Last edited by Dinuc on Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

isabel
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by isabel » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:16 am

@Dinuc HP and GoT came up because kryyg referenced them as good examples and went on to criticize the diversity in WoT. wrt to this

"If you watched some US and UK TV you would be very surprised if you looked up the actual ethnic breakdowns of those countries.

Representation and positive discrimination is different. And I wonder if a lot of people praising diversity in these shows even understands the difference."

Actually before posting here I looked up proportional representation in the US and what I could find on the UK (it's pretty obvious based on shows like friends, big bang theory, Harry Potter etc but always good to get facts). Compare the Hollywood diversity report of 2014

"In terms of film leads, minorities are under-represented by more than a factor of three to one; minorities are only about 10 percent of leads in films, despite the fact that they are about 38 percent of the population"

With

"The "Hollywood Diversity Report 2021: Pandemic in Progress" report – which typically only looks at theatrical releases, but included streaming to account for the pandemic's effects on how we watch movies – found that more women and people of color got jobs last year in the categories of lead actors, total cast, writers and directors. In the acting categories, they reached close to proportionate representation (accurately reflecting their make-up of the population at large)."

isabel
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by isabel » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:22 am

HP is not racist? Can you imagine what the books and show would be if the pureblood to half-blood/mudblood ratio was the same as the white to other race casting? The main characters would be Draco, Pansy and..Neville? Many of the Hogwarts professors and students would be ineligible.

You don't even know if Cho Chang is supposed to be Korean or Chinese and you're commenting on whether it's a stereotype or not. If you had any notion of what you are actually eligible to have an opinion on, you would know that this is not it.

Kordin
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Kordin » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:33 am

isabel wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:22 am
If you had any notion of what you are actually eligible to have an opinion on, you would know that this is not it.
....what?

Dinuc
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Dinuc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:37 am

isabel wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:22 am
You don't even know if Cho Chang is supposed to be Korean or Chinese and you're commenting on whether it's a stereotype or not. If you had any notion of what you are actually eligible to have an opinion on, you would know that this is not it.
I am allowed to have an opinion on anything I want, because I understand that my opinion and thoughts should not be judged based on my skin colour. They should be judged on their merit.

I watch a lot of Chinese and Korean media. I would have thought for sure Chang was Chinese. I would have no clue on Cho.

But from my googling neither name is exclusive to either country. So unless JKR specifically clarifies it, which she didn't appear to have done. Then people can interpret it any way they want to.

But I wasn't the one that bought up Korean. I was surprised but I didn't say either way on if it is right or wrong. How about you enlighten us Isabel rather than just attacking a random person who has a different opinion and trying to gate their arguments on something you haven't even claimed is true or not, you appear to have just taken Fuujin's word for it because you want to gang up on other people.

And JKR picked the name Harry Potter because it is the most generic male name in that country. So you could argue that is a stereotype rather than Cho Chang. Just because Fuujin prefers the names like Luna Lovegood, doesn't make the name Cho Chang racist.
Last edited by Dinuc on Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

iria
Posts: 504
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Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by iria » Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:52 am

Hmm isn't Rand the only redhead we've seen so far? Would've been nice if he was a bit taller, but I imagine they found the fella to be the best fit despite not being a foot taller than everyone. Would've been good if they had made some more comments on it so the non book readers knew that it was a thing, so it wasn't just Loial in episode 5 commenting on it.

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