The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Aira
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Aira » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:20 am

Katherine wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:21 pm
The shawl is a great device to distinguish Aes Sedai for several reasons, at least in my mind. The most important characteristic is that it rests across the shoulders. This is generally known as the "mantle of authority", something that Accepted and nobody else in the world can attain without becoming an Aes Sedai. The Amyrlin Seat trades her shawl for a stole which serves a similar symbolic purpose, showing her authority over all Aes Sedai. Even in RL, women of wealth and power sometimes wear a shawl to formal events. Depending your taste in style and fashion and how its worn and cut, a shawl could represent sophistication and power. Rings also have this purpose, but its not nearly as visible, especially a rock inside of a ring so that its barely even visible at all.

The screenwriters are reading the books and they are supposed to be advised by Sanderson, but there is definitely a lot of needless modifications to RJ's design that I think reflects the writers' vanity more than anything that adds value on screen. That's just my opinion anyways.
I suspect it's for practical reasons. Things that are loose, like sword sheaths on belts and shawls, move. When things move, they will inevitably be in different positions between takes. It's why the sword sheaths on back is done so frequently on film/tv. On the back it can be put nice and secure with minimal movement. Reportedly, it's why Moiraine also doesn't wear the kesiera in other scenes, because it would move about.

Unless you were to sew/ pin the shawls in place in several places*, they would be up at the neck and slowly move down. In a scene like the Hall, you would potentially see them up, down, halfway up and everywhere in between on the same person, when left loose like book shawls. There is a continuity person they hire, who used to keep track of how far a cigarette was smoked etc. But, with 20 shawls (one Green seat was empty, presumably Kerene's) on Sitters, several on the other Aes Sedai and a stole... I can see why that would be a pain. Unless you incorporate them into the clothing, e.g. the Amyrlin's stole.

I still wish they had included it somehow, but I can also see why they may not have.

*I once sewed a coat with a double decorative collar. It's attached from literally the front buttons, all the way across the neckline and back to the front again. Those two things move like no tomorrow even with interfacing to keep them somewhat the same shape. I always need to take time to position them.
At best, I think it would work if it worked like those shoulder capes on wax coats, which means they're attached on the collar/ neckline and then under the arms. You'd likely still have issues with draping on the edges in case of fringes.

Dinuc
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Dinuc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:37 am

iria wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:08 am
Ah apologies, your post was just the one I noticed regarding Rand and I wasn't sure what the issue with him was, except maybe the lack of setup about the Red hair.

Daniel Greene has a nice video about the diversity with the fella from a dusty wheel, where they've done a lot of research regarding the different ethnicity in Randland, definitely worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr7lDwNU770
Those guys are all over the place. He claims it takes "tens of thousands of years" for a town the size of EF to be homogenous (time 5:40) !? That sounds ridiculous to me. And he pulls that factoid out of nowhere as though his claim is indisputable while providing no proof of where he gets it from. Some civilisations only last about 300 years, with the longest ever being 3500...

Meanwhile they bring up many quotes about people standing out from the general characteristics of the nationalities they belong to.

I don't think anybody is saying that the people in these towns or countries need to be identical. But when the show visits these places it would be good for people to be able to distinguish the differences. And this can be from many aspects, like building design, clothing design, and yes the way people generally look and behave.

His characters in the story do believe that people in these towns have general characteristics. So it would be cool if show watchers could get the same impressions.
Elaida had put down her knitting, Rand realized, and was studying him. She rose from her stool and slowly came down from the dais to stand before him. "From the Two Rivers?" she said. She reached a hand toward his head; he pulled away from her touch, and she let her hand drop. "With that red in his hair, and gray eyes? Two Rivers people are dark of hair and eye, and they seldom have such height." Her hand darted out to push back his coat sleeve, exposing lighter skin the sun had not reached so often. "Or such skin."

Jestin
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Jestin » Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:12 pm

I'm not sure what you guys are all arguing about. Obviously in any time not in the last like 300 years of human history, any small village would have really homogenous looking people. There wouldn't be white people, black people, and Asians all randomly living together in some small village :p

But as others have said this oddity is a small offense compared to all the other dung they changed seemingly for no reason. My biggest gripe is the last episode was building up all this need for secrecy then having Moiraine and Siuan literally crying in the Hall, htf can you explain that. And Siuan is suddenly some sorry of Dreamer? Why not have Egwene or the trio have the dream that sends them to the EotW instead???

Kryyg
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:52 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Kryyg » Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:43 pm

I never pointed to LoTR and HP as good examples of diversity. I pointed to them as good ADAPTATIONS of the books. Each author writes the books based on their own interactions. Their home countries may represent a % of whatever race but their own interactions may not always reflect that. America as someone pointed out is quite diverse - but if the author is from the mid-West, their interactions aren't going to be so diverse. Conversely, an author who grew up and writes in NYC is likely going to see the diversity more and this may reflect in their writings. Saying the former is racist and the latter isn't is just plain idiotic and the height of arrogance.

Claiming racism purely based on cast is just bullshit. Also, Randland is fantasy and does have to represent any country. I am all for diversity in the WoT, I just wish they had it more believable, and I posted about how this could be, by having certains regions of Randland associated with different skin tones, hair color, as would be expected of that geography and landscape...you know, like it likely was many many years ago.

Also, it is not my main gripe, just one of them and also not a reason I would not watch but when piled on top of the other things I feel they should have spent more time on, makes me dissapointed.

Reyne
Posts: 1418
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Reyne » Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:49 am

It's almost like the world broke and people got scattered to the winds repeatedly as their nations collapsed.

Not that weird for there to be diversity in a big city, which is what Manetheren was, no?

It's just such a small point that the fixation comes off as odd. imo anyway. It's fantasy.
Claiming racism purely based on cast is just bullshit.
Don't think they are. Think it's just them wondering why some are so upset about it.


Anyway actually it wasn't that weird at all to see a mix of people in Europe or Asia. For Europe, African territories were just across the Mediterranean and people traded for thousands of years.
I posted about how this could be, by having certains regions of Randland associated with different skin tones, hair color, as would be expected of that geography and landscape...you know, like it likely was many many years ago.
The red hair is a Thing, it's been mentioned a couple times in the show.

As for the rest, they're identifying the Two Rivers folk by their dress, mannerisms, personality traits. That's pretty much how people would have historically been identified as being from a certain place. Some people are projecting modern conceptions of race back onto a history which didn't have such a concept until around the ~1600/1700s (at least not in Europe, I can't speak to Asia). Combined with specifics like "huh weird, red hair is typically only found in the Aiel Waste" and I'm really not sure what the issue is; if we're speaking in terms of historical realism.

No one went around calling Septimius Severus a black person who was a forced diversity hire.

There's a painting from the 1500s of the King's Fountain in Lisbon - half the people depicted are not white. Fine, Lisbon is/was a big trade city near Africa... but that's kind of the point. People did move around, despite our concepts of peasants who never went 20 miles away from home for hundreds of years.

E: if this is supposed to be future Earth, lore-wise, then isn't it more accurate to show less homogeneous people? Cuz we're not talking about medieval villages right, we're talking about basically modern (Age of Legends) towns and cities being hit with a Breaking then racked with wars for a few thousand years. Idk I gotta go to work now though :cry:

Asandra
Posts: 748
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 11:30 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Asandra » Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:04 pm

Yeah, that's the thing. It's post-apocalyptic actually.

arston
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by arston » Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:34 pm

maybe they missed all the details on WoT universe stuff because they were too focused already on the ethnic diversity stuff already. They didnt get it "perfect" and even if they did there would still be a bunch of people who were unhappy with how it was portrayed. In the end they did this to make a cool fantasy tv show, not to make an accurate depiction of racial compositions in an imaginary universe, it seems like we are kinda missing the point here.

I just noticed something on the latest watch through that really made it seem cooler. Every time someone channels they pull the elements power out of certain things, like if they are channeling fire, they pull threads from a candle or a torch, air they pull from the sky, water from the bathtub, etc, then they take the those threads and weave their spells, which i thought was a really cool touch, and a great way to depict it.

Also a neat trick my brother let me onto, if you watch them with subtitles it says who is speaking at any given time, and when chars from the books make little cameo apprerances without getting introduced (like basil gill- the innkeeper in TAR VALON :x ) then you see the name of who is speaking!

halfhand
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by halfhand » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:36 pm

Wheel of Time retains its demand spot
Parrot Analytics for Dec 4-10 digital orignals(including Episode 6)

1. The Wheel of Time (Prime) 41.7X
2. La Casa De Papel (netflix) 40.2X
3. Hawkeye (Dis+) 39.9X
4. Arcane (Netflix) 38.2x
5. The Mandalorian (Dis+) 36.2X
6. Stranger Things (Netflix) 34.9x
7. Titans (HBOMax) 32.8X
8. Ted Lasso (Apple) 29.1X
9. The Expanse PREMIER (prime) 28.9X
10. The Witcher (netflix) 28.5X

Amazon should be happy with the success of WoT so far. In comparison, The Expanse. However, likely to be dethrone by Witcher Season 2 next week.

Katherine
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 9:10 pm

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Katherine » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:53 pm

Reyne wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:49 am
Anyway actually it wasn't that weird at all to see a mix of people in Europe or Asia. For Europe, African territories were just across the Mediterranean and people traded for thousands of years.
Maybe in places like Rome or Alexandria. A reasonable comparison to the Two Rivers might be some backwater in ancient Gaul or Germany around the first century AD. Not out on the fringes of civilization, but far enough in the interior where its not really along any major trade routes, and isolated enough to be mostly autonomous from the surrounding regions, including Rome. In those locations, it would be extremely uncommon to see anyone outside local clans for many years.
The red hair is a Thing, it's been mentioned a couple times in the show.
I do not really have an opinion on what Two Rivers people should or should not look like besides my own imagination from my own experiences and biases. However, I always thought that Rand must look close enough to a Two Rivers native to not feel like an outsider while at the same time being different enough for Elaida and others to notice the difference immediately even though she has probably never been to Two Rivers in her entire life. I am reasonably sure that most Two Rivers natives had similar phenotypes because villages isolated for hundreds, if not thousands, of years with a great deal of genetic diversity really do not exist in nature prior to mass transportation on any continent. I would definitely expect Tar Valon to be far more cosmopolitan being a center of culture, knowledge, trade, and power and given "all roads lead to Tar Valon".

Katherine
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 9:10 pm

Re: The Wheel of Time Season 1 Episode 6: The Flame of Tar Valon

Post by Katherine » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:15 pm

Aira wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:20 am
I suspect it's for practical reasons. Things that are loose, like sword sheaths on belts and shawls, move. When things move, they will inevitably be in different positions between takes. It's why the sword sheaths on back is done so frequently on film/tv. On the back it can be put nice and secure with minimal movement. Reportedly, it's why Moiraine also doesn't wear the kesiera in other scenes, because it would move about.

Unless you were to sew/ pin the shawls in place in several places*, they would be up at the neck and slowly move down. In a scene like the Hall, you would potentially see them up, down, halfway up and everywhere in between on the same person, when left loose like book shawls. There is a continuity person they hire, who used to keep track of how far a cigarette was smoked etc. But, with 20 shawls (one Green seat was empty, presumably Kerene's) on Sitters, several on the other Aes Sedai and a stole... I can see why that would be a pain. Unless you incorporate them into the clothing, e.g. the Amyrlin's stole.
This would have been one place where the price of giving up a part of the canon was too high for the cost of ensuring continuity. Shawls also do not need to be worn everywhere, perhaps only within Tar Valon or at formal settings, and when they are worn outdoors, its ok for them to be a little different between takes and scenes. People fidget with their clothes all the time, so if the shawl was worn a little lower on the right than on the left and then in the next frame, a little lower on the left than on the right, most viewers would not care.

However I'd say a significant number of viewers DO care that the shawl was left out entirely. To me its like someone doing a Star Wars film and having all the Jedi characters fight using a metal sword rather than sparing the expense of making them wield light sabers. The light saber is iconic. The shawl is iconic. It was a mistake leaving it out.

Post Reply