Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

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Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Callesa » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:24 pm

It feels that right now, the only thing to do is to just make a DF too. Or to just sit in a room and not even try to smob.

There are too many of dfs, and I am not talking just about the known ones. Sorry to say that, but if you rat a smob group, that took a few hours to gather (like what happened yesterday), you are a bad person irl. You are not just an ic df, you are a bad person and should think about it a bit. You are ruining a few hours leading up to the moment. Some people cannot just get another group and try later, because it would be chortlesnorfling 4am for us.

There are too few highbies on for majority of my day, that are not DFs (known but also unknown). But most stuff, for example herald quests, require a large group. It is extremely hard to put one together, and than it gets ratted by some unknown df. Why were the heralds destroyed this way? Where was the problem? I was looking forward to smobbing a lot and perhaps getting rank 8 with the qps. But you pulled that ladder. I either cannot get a group, or it gets ratted by someone. You can also just remove them from the game, if they are not meant to be used anymore.

When I complanied about some stuff, I got told "make a df too, it's fun". That's the problem. Is it really just a DS mud for 16-20 hours out of 24? We do not have a unified DS and fragmented LS (as some people like to point out), we right now have half the active LS unified with the DS.

I tried to find solutions. But right now, we are ending our short bond with Ciegon, because it got changed in a way making a bonded pair much worse for smobbing, than me just smobbing with another totally random person. No bonuses, even maluses (the autorescue is a huge problem, if I cannot WvD my warder and I don't really get to use any draining or other such thing, the 20 sps are really missed, and I don't get any advantage at all). Where are the bonuses everyone keeps talking about? Where is the power that people think needs to be downed? Wasn't the bond with a Gaidin supposed to be a huge perk for people, who put tons of time and efforts into actually Shawling?

Is the PvE not supposed to be played anymore? Is the LS not supposed to be played anymore? Or what is the idea behind that? Why are so many fun things beind destroyed?

Galowyn
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Galowyn » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:47 am

I'll be honest and say I have so little experience in this game that my opinions may be totally invalid, so please take it all with a grain of salt. But I do tend to agree with Callesa on a lot of this. I understand this is a primarily PK game and as someone that has done a lot of PVP in other games I know it can suck when you are just sitting around trying to find someone to kill and there is nothing going on.

That being said I know several new people that have been killed while trying to level, admittedly they were over level 20 so I don't blame DS for killing them. But it's a real quick way for someone to quit when they don't know what happened or how to get their gear back. One thing I have to give a shout out to Vannor for, when they have killed me / been around me getting killed recently while trying to do quests. They have messaged me and told me where my gear is. I still have to get a few pieces (notably ring & dress for tower) but like just that little thing has made me actually keep playing. I know that is probably dumb for a lot of people, I'm learning more of the game every day but honestly if I lost all my gear I would have very little knowledge of how to get it again.

For a new player they most likely have not even fought a lithe woman yet, let alone knowing how to go about it when they have no gear after dying. I know the answer to all of this is going to be "Just ask someone will help you" and while I have found that to be mostly true, people are not always on nor are they willing to come help. It's nice to help people but a game should have better systems in place for getting someone back on their feet than simply the charity of others.

I don't exactly know how to fix this though, I'm sure it's a nightmare for the Imms there isn't exactly a good solution other than maybe "Under level 30 you can 'say kit please' when in the circle of light" or something like that. It might be easy to abuse and that's why it doesn't but just something that doesn't leave you with nothing. That or maybe makin the town criers give VERY basic gear for like 50 crowns or something. Idk what value you want to make it that doesn't matter as much but similar to how the wearied merchants do just make it lower tier.

There are lots of mechanics that exist for people with a lot of gold, or a lot of knowledge in the game. You can use an alt to stab and get gear, you can take a bunch of gold to a merchant, you can visit the Lugard Bazzar etc. But for someone really new to the game or returning having something that is under 100 crowns to give you enough gear to kill some bandits / hillmen would go a long way. To be fair such a system might already exist and I just don't know about it. So if it does please let me know, sorry this got a bit ranty and off topic. All in all at least for me personally the fear of not being able / not knowing how to replace things I will lose has kept me sitting in the warders yard for hours some days. I don't think DS are bad people or anything like that, but I also can't afford to spend 2 QP's on a new dress and ring every day. I barely know how to get QP's as it is and I'm sure there are many other players that would be in the same boat.

Please don't take this as a "PK IS MEAN" post cause it certainly isn't I have had a lot of fun every time and like I said Vannor being a real nice person about it each time has made life much better. I think people just get frustrated that hours and hours of progress can be wiped out, for a new player (and I'm sure some older players) that can be really disheartening. Again sorry for the rant I hope to see you nasty trollocs in FD again soon <3

Vannor
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:05 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Vannor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:04 am

Id be very very surprised if your smob group was hit because of an unknown DF ratting, the system for getting that to occur is actually a whole lot harder than you might think. You might've left tracks, had a rat/raven on you, or just gotten plain unlucky.

Without giving too much away about the unknown DF process, the way you think they progress demonstrates you don't know very much about the system. If anything unknown DFs are benefitted more by working with LS 90% of the time rather than against them.

PvE is great, although PvE being interrupted by PK isint a new thing, not even close. I think there's a gap with newer LS groups that comes from many people progressing a long way via PvE without developing a good base set of PK skills to respond better when you are hit by DS/LS. If you don't spend time honing that skill, you are going to die to people that have.

Regarding knowns and their prevalence. There's arguably 3 active ones at the moment. I can't speak for other knowns but most active LS know I won't grief you, I generally don't loot (I don't need it/got nowhere to store it) and on occasions I might whisper to those I think who are struggling where some XP scalps might have been magically left.

Generally speaking the 'known' cohort knows the system is a drag on LS at times, and are sympathetic to that. But we have a goal to reach, just like you, so we're obviously out to try and do that. The staff have a close eye on knowns and are looking to evaluate the system to change it where it needs to be changed. The known players also provide feedback all the time and yes one of the main concerns has been the detriment to LS that known DFs cause.

I agree heralds are a little low for the difficulty, and could perhaps be looked at upping again given an AS/Warder pair have more difficulty steamrolling everything - which just about everyone agrees is a good thing. They are still a very strong class and definitely strong vs PvE

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Callesa » Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:34 am

Galowyn wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:47 am
One thing I have to give a shout out to Vannor for, when they have killed me / been around me getting killed recently while trying to do quests. They have messaged me and told me where my gear is.
Yes, this is a huge thing, and I would also like to thank for usually killing me just once per boot or sometimes not even that. If the current known DFs used their abilities to the fullest on the short Who list that I am often on, I would have been dead several times more often and quited. I was closed to it at the beginning, because just any non pk activity leading to me dying was too much and I was getting several such deaths a day. The newbies have it even harder, and this sort of ooc kindness means a lot.
I know the answer to all of this is going to be "Just ask someone will help you" and while I have found that to be mostly true, people are not always on nor are they willing to come help. It's nice to help people but a game should have better systems in place for getting someone back on their feet than simply the charity of others.
The thing is, that there often aren't many people, that can help. If you happen to play on a short who list with mostly lowbies, a DF, and one or two highbies, then it is hard to get help.

I try my best and spend quite a good part of my time helping newbies. Not to get thanked, but because I remember what it was like and because I very selfishly want to keep this game alive. And I realize very well that the Aes Sedai are a huge part of the PR for the mud, most people reading the books/watching the show will come to see/become the Aes Sedai, so a real one out there, meeting them, and helping, is imho a very good supplemental thing to get them excited about the game. (But of course I help on an alt too)

But it really feels bad, when I get killed by a pair of DS, when I try to help a lowbie exp in the Lost Forest. Like a punishment for helping, because I could have of course behaved more safely, and 100% of those behaviours would have lead to me not helping the lowbie at all. And no, I cannot just call for help, there are no other nonDF highbies on, or perhaps one (who may be far away, or very logically not willing to go against two after my death).
I don't exactly know how to fix this though, I'm sure it's a nightmare for the Imms there isn't exactly a good solution other than maybe "Under level 30 you can 'say kit please' when in the circle of light" or something like that. It might be easy to abuse and that's why it doesn't but just something that doesn't leave you with nothing. That or maybe makin the town criers give VERY basic gear for like 50 crowns or something. Idk what value you want to make it that doesn't matter as much but similar to how the wearied merchants do just make it lower tier.
A lot has been done in this area. Some very good steps in the right direction are kits for money (so, it just takes courage to ask on chats, because of course a newbie will say "oh, 500 crowns for a kit, the person is ruining themselves for me!"), and also the newbie quests for eq pieces. However, I find the whole newbie ingame introduction thing a bit overwhelming, based on what I've observed. It is great in many ways, but overwhelming. And the quests are just up to some level, while you can (and will) stay newbie for much longer.

The solution here is player based, getting lithe gears for people very often, helping exp and learn (because exping together may be the least efficient way to exp for me, but it is the most efficient way to introduce various commands and game things at the right pace for the newbie). And it would be nice to not kill people as a punishment for doing so. I get it, this is a PK mud. I need to count with being attacked during quests or smobs etc. But being killed while helping a newbie/lowbie, that is very bitter. There is no coded solution, just DS that might agree to be a bit more bored, give up on their free Callesa scalp for once, and kill me later, when I am not with the lowbie for example. If I am somewhere with a level 8-level 25, we are there primarily for the other person, not for me. You have the right to kill me (this is a not safe mud, I know), but you are just complicating what we've been trying to do (exping, teaching basics of the game, etc) and punishing me. And no, you are not attracting the newbie by pk, you are not showing off the most fun part of the mud, I have never in 15 years seen a single newbie, who reacted to the situation like this "oh, pk is so cool, I want to do this too!".
There are lots of mechanics that exist for people with a lot of gold, or a lot of knowledge in the game. You can use an alt to stab and get gear, you can take a bunch of gold to a merchant, you can visit the Lugard Bazzar etc. But for someone really new to the game or returning having something that is under 100 crowns to give you enough gear to kill some bandits / hillmen would go a long way. To be fair such a system might already exist and I just don't know about it. So if it does please let me know, sorry this got a bit ranty and off topic. All in all at least for me personally the fear of not being able / not knowing how to replace things I will lose has kept me sitting in the warders yard for hours some days. I don't think DS are bad people or anything like that, but I also can't afford to spend 2 QP's on a new dress and ring every day. I barely know how to get QP's as it is and I'm sure there are many other players that would be in the same boat.
There is a player based solution: keep the caemlyn barrel stocked with one or two lithe kits at all times, and make it a point to help a newbie regularly. At least a few newbie helps a week. It's not always about gear, or money (but yes, even as little for us as 20 crowns can really help them in the very beginning), but also information and helping in the situations like getting hagged horseless somewhere, or stuck in a door or something.

As to the qps: I don't hesitate to reward rp, and even throw a qp for newbie help that is a bit more than just giving something or two sentences. As we are now finally encouraged to reward RP more (including logs etc), I think it should help a bit.
Please don't take this as a "PK IS MEAN" post cause it certainly isn't I have had a lot of fun every time and like I said Vannor being a real nice person about it each time has made life much better. I think people just get frustrated that hours and hours of progress can be wiped out, for a new player (and I'm sure some older players) that can be really disheartening. Again sorry for the rant I hope to see you nasty trollocs in FD again soon <3
I don't think the main problem is PK here. I think it is a sum of various problems, that makes it really hard to enjoy PvE, to help newbies, etc. While Pk may be one of the main parts of this game, it is being presented as a game for various types of players. We even have a nice picture based introductory page on the website, with 9 "types of players". And several of them are being damaged by various changes.

Elysia
Posts: 7907
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Elysia » Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:08 am

Callesa wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:34 am
As to the qps: I don't hesitate to reward rp, and even throw a qp for newbie help that is a bit more than just giving something or two sentences. As we are now finally encouraged to reward RP more (including logs etc), I think it should help a bit.
*pushes her pay it forward mobol again*

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2077&p=12182&hilit= ... ard#p12182

If you see someone consistently helping newbies, feel free to leave a note for them to be awarded for that. It's manual and reviewed every once in a while, so not instant, but still, it is rewarded.

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Callesa » Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:26 am

Vannor wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:04 am
Id be very very surprised if your smob group was hit because of an unknown DF ratting, the system for getting that to occur is actually a whole lot harder than you might think. You might've left tracks, had a rat/raven on you, or just gotten plain unlucky.

Without giving too much away about the unknown DF process, the way you think they progress demonstrates you don't know very much about the system. If anything unknown DFs are benefitted more by working with LS 90% of the time rather than against them.
Yes, you are probably right, I don't know much about it. But what I've observed on others and myself: the recent tons of dfs (especilly Lisennet) are leaving behind a lot of ooc emotional damage and player distrust and similar stuff. Which is not helpful for having fun on a game. I know you are ooc really trying to not just destroy others. But while we may keep parroting that DFs are a totally bookish and valid IC choice, the wave of DFs right now is making ooc damage to people. The suspicions are high, the amount of real LS on the who list is lower, and I don't think this is the best thing for the game.

So yes, I may not know much about the DF system, because I always knew it was not for me, I am not capable of either the level of ic/ooc separation of feeling like a bad person (I play to be the hero), and I am also not naive enough to think the IC actions don't leave OOC damage.

While I may admire the amount of work Lisennet has put in her character and I totally recognize how bookish some of the aspects of this are (except for rping openly the black ajah, that is not bookish at all, or the fact that the black ajah just observed acceptedds and recruited after shawling), I think she has harmed the mud ooc enormously too. The levels of suspicion were never that high. I am by far not the only one, who thinks about another player being a traitor long before I consider any other of the totally reasonable options you've mentioned.
PvE is great, although PvE being interrupted by PK isint a new thing, not even close. I think there's a gap with newer LS groups that comes from many people progressing a long way via PvE without developing a good base set of PK skills to respond better when you are hit by DS/LS. If you don't spend time honing that skill, you are going to die to people that have.
You're missing the point here. I am not arguing about pk being wrong or new as a way to disrupt the pve elements I am just saying, that if it happens too often, I m forced to play someone elses game, to give someone else fun, and someone else rewards. Because most of the time, I am not having fun pking at all, I am simply not that kind of a person, it is mostly an exception to have fun while pking (and it usually happens in group vs group pk, so not happening for vast majority of my time online).

Your advice sounds nice at first and I would partially agree. Some pk skills should be learnt by everyone. But you are basically telling me to give up on playing Age of Empires, just because other people want to play Counterstrike all the time, and their fun is more important than mine. (Perhaps not the best examples, but they demonstrate the point). And I am expected to serve as their fun just because they don't have other people to play with on the Who list.

So, do you really believe I should either stop playing wotmud, or just to play a totally different game than I want 100% of the time just to satisfy others? Are they really that much more valuable than me, just because they do a more prestigious activity? Just because they don't have anyone else on the who list, anyone who might actually want to play their game?

Regarding knowns and their prevalence. There's arguably 3 active ones at the moment. I can't speak for other knowns but most active LS know I won't grief you, I generally don't loot (I don't need it/got nowhere to store it) and on occasions I might whisper to those I think who are struggling where some XP scalps might have been magically left.
The prevalence varies based on paytimes. If I could play at 4am all the time, I wouldn't complain at all. But the known DFs make like 50% of the highbies on my wholists for the majority of the time. That is a hell of a prevalence.

I know that you do all that, and I am grateful. If you wanted, you could make the game really hell but you choose to be cool instead. But that doesn't change the fact that you are one less player for smobbing on an already very short wholist, one less player to come to help against DS, and one more threat. That's why I stick to my idea of our need for a LS remort, to keep people playing LS too and dilute the DF amount a bit.
Generally speaking the 'known' cohort knows the system is a drag on LS at times, and are sympathetic to that. But we have a goal to reach, just like you, so we're obviously out to try and do that. The staff have a close eye on knowns and are looking to evaluate the system to change it where it needs to be changed. The known players also provide feedback all the time and yes one of the main concerns has been the detriment to LS that known DFs cause.
The cat is out of the bag, I don't think there is any solution at all. Right now, I just hope you will all just get your remorts asap, so that people get less paranoid, use the narrates more usefully again (because we are now at a paranoia extreme), don't worry this much about DFs. Because while we may agree that the LS is meant to be IC fragmented, we are now having it OOC fragmented too. A game that is supposed to be multiplayer now has a very visible "other players are probably traitors" sign on every who list. When you finally get enough scalps and the remort, you will be just a standard DS, and will let the LS profit from some desperately needed (even though partially fase) sense of security within our side.

I also think the current addition of Graymen is a problem too. Not primarily because of any pk concerns, or even because of getting killed while doing other stuff. The IC things are ok too, I find many aspects of this new addition cool. But it is a huge OOC message from the staff: screw the LS and get rewarded, nurture the LS and get punished and told to learn the PK better.

Now that I think of it, perhaps it would be better to just strike more harshly and not take any regards anymore. If you could kill me 20 times a day, could you just get your remort in a month? I would gladly sponsor this with my exp and even eq. There are like 5 active known DFs, how many Aes Sedai scalps would it take, to finally get the LS back to a sort of normal situation? I will stand there and not even try to run, to make it faster. I just want the game back. Perhaps the good Pkers slowing you down are actually making a huge ooc mistake, because they are prolonging the LS' suffering. Perhaps if we all just got scalped enough times on purpose, we could help you get what you want and get back what we want.

I agree heralds are a little low for the difficulty, and could perhaps be looked at upping again given an AS/Warder pair have more difficulty steamrolling everything - which just about everyone agrees is a good thing. They are still a very strong class and definitely strong vs PvE
The heralds are laughably low for the difficulty, and the change of them to make them end in the north=turn the smob groups into just easy scalps for ds, is extremely unfortunate. Is anyone even doing them semi-regularly now? Is it worth it to anybody? I don't even get full qps, as I am above 1000 qps now, so basically no reward at all (the few tps will be lost long before I get to amass 50). So, are people supposed to try to reach the Rank 8 (the supposed alternative to remort), or not?

A solution would be to change a part of the options back the more reasonable ones. So, some days, the herald chain would be the one leading to the north =impossible to do for most players, and some days it would be the actually fun one. And seriouly up the rewards, give QPs to everyone, including Masters. Without Masters and in general skilled players putting together and participating in the Herald groups, the feature is dead.

Where is the strength of AS/warder in PvE? The only way to be a PvE strong AS now is to have good stats (harder now, especially with the hp cap, the prerolled or similar are not good enough for PvE), to become a sleep stabber (wasn't that supposed to be the discouraged strategy) and wvd abser (again something that was discouraged in past). The bonded pari may not steamroll everything, but it should definitely be very strong, it was supposed to be one of my main perks for Shawling, wasn't it? It is simply a lie, that AS are such strong characters, most of our advantages were taken away. Yes, exceptional fighting players will excel at having an AS char, but basically in the same way they will excel at having a Damane, Dreadlord, Accepted, anything else. But being AS doesn't really give many advantages, especially compared to the effort required to shawl.

Really, the people hating the AS chars, FCs, and the bonded pairs have won. It's rather trash now. It used to be fun, but now the fun ways to play the game are to be either american (to play with many people), or to be a solo stabber, and/or DF. That is rather narrow.

Galowyn
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Galowyn » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:46 am

Elysia wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:08 am

*pushes her pay it forward mobol again*

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2077&p=12182&hilit= ... ard#p12182

If you see someone consistently helping newbies, feel free to leave a note for them to be awarded for that. It's manual and reviewed every once in a while, so not instant, but still, it is rewarded.
Ooo I didn't know about this, that is useful thanks for linking it :)
Callesa wrote: There is a player based solution: keep the caemlyn barrel stocked with one or two lithe kits at all times, and make it a point to help a newbie regularly. At least a few newbie helps a week. It's not always about gear, or money (but yes, even as little for us as 20 crowns can really help them in the very beginning), but also information and helping in the situations like getting hagged horseless somewhere, or stuck in a door or something
This is a good point, I've finally started to get to a point where fighting a lithe by myself isn't scary (I know they are not that hard but I'm paranoid :P ). I'll make a point to now put stuff in the Caemlyn barrel instead of just scattered in various places.

Defiantly the information thing is important as well, I think a lot of people have played for so long that they kind of forget how much people don't know. Like killing lithe for example, I'm planning on writing up a guide on where they all are and how to get there / what dangers are around. Cause so many times I see people say "oh just kill lithe north of Lugard" or "east of tear" etc. Which is helpful information, but as a newbie I have no idea what half those words mean :P the wiki has helped me a lot with that and the findroom command for the mudlet map.

Elysia
Posts: 7907
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Elysia » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:19 am

Actually, I should expand what I said, the pay it forward is not just for helping newbies, but people helping out others in general. It's just most often newbies who need help.

Kordin
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:17 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Kordin » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:50 am

Galowyn wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:46 am
Elysia wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:08 am

*pushes her pay it forward mobol again*

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2077&p=12182&hilit= ... ard#p12182

If you see someone consistently helping newbies, feel free to leave a note for them to be awarded for that. It's manual and reviewed every once in a while, so not instant, but still, it is rewarded.
Ooo I didn't know about this, that is useful thanks for linking it :)
https://wotmud.fandom.com/wiki/Quest_point

Kordin
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:17 pm

Re: Why are absolutely any chances of enjoying PvE being destroyed?

Post by Kordin » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:53 am

Vannor wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:04 am
Id be very very surprised if your smob group was hit because of an unknown DF ratting, the system for getting that to occur is actually a whole lot harder than you might think. You might've left tracks, had a rat/raven on you, or just gotten plain unlucky.
Or people on LS on statters sending DMs to someone on DS if the smob group/event has been organized/announced on globals.

It can happen, has happened and best to just keep it low key as frustrating that can make the whole deal. I've had a number of tells sent that X doesn't know Y and doesn't trust Z so the smob group fell apart before we'd even start with the first smob.

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