Make all clanning requirements accessible

[Kordin]

There is reason for certain clans which are fairly inactive and Watchers may not be around anymore and/or haven't been assigned a new Watcher.

This seems to be mostly focused on bonused and/or "we cannot confirm nor deny our existance" clans.

Imms have enough work as it is, dealing with applicant letters is really not something they should add to the pile of paperwork they need to monitor already. Players can afford to spend time dealing with applicants, and not having them play with weeks or months on end without seeing anyone who can either give direct feedback on their progress, or simply hang and do stuff with them so they take that as progress feedback.

An Imm won't and probably can't take time to babysit an applicant until they are ready to clan.

Lumis already have a mobol process which starts the application process and lets us know that someone has applied. KMG has an automated process, Dragonsworn used to (not sure if they have anymore?).

So why not for those clans (whose existence can be confirmed) that want to? Maybe they have active members but due to time zones, those who are interested just can't log on in hopes of catching someone from that clan, who lives on the other side of the world.

Being a "full member" at rank 3 is already a thing in a lot of clans, and before that - other than having the clan flag, issuable cloak that's pretty much all you can do until you reach rank 3, and that is done only by a Council member (and maybe non-Council R7), perhaps even after passing some tests (instead of just being active and a good member of the team).

There's no reason to say "there's no reason for this" for ALL clans, because also certain clans were mentioned, who would either way get told "no way in hell" by Imms if they even wanted any of this.

If people don't have solid ways of achieving, or at least attempting to achieve, their goals, they'll probably get bored faster and leave. It's an old game in a very niche genre. Remorting has a clear process from DS side, from LS side everyone knows DF system exists, all it takes is probably some imagination on how to become one then you get the info as you progress (or just become buddies with some people and get it discorded as a lot of other things are...).

So why have non-bonused (but should be imho, every LS clan, based on RP) fairly or completely dead justice clans (and others, looking at you Glee) like for example Sword and Hand (seems to be completely dead these days?) stay that way if someone wants to go through some automated process and have an alt there to play?

[daal]

Lumis already have a mobol process which starts the application process and lets us know that someone has applied. KMG has an automated process, Dragonsworn used to (not sure if they have anymore?).

So why not for those clans (whose existence can be confirmed) that want to? Maybe they have active members but due to time zones, those who are interested just can't log on in hopes of catching someone from that clan, who lives on the other side of the world.

Being a "full member" at rank 3 is already a thing in a lot of clans, and before that - other than having the clan flag, issuable cloak that's pretty much all you can do until you reach rank 3, and that is done only by a Council member (and maybe non-Council R7), perhaps even after passing some tests (instead of just being active and a good member of the team).

There's no reason to say "there's no reason for this" for ALL clans, because also certain clans were mentioned, who would either way get told "no way in hell" by Imms if they even wanted any of this.

I've advocated for this for well over a decade now, have some simple effort gate to join a clan, then have the real clanning process be ranks 1-3 or 1-4 even. Rank 5 is typically the next "big thing" in non-bonused clans when you get the 2nd trinket. I'm glad someone else is trying to carry the torch forward too.

Gleeman actually clans and operates this way too btw Kordin. They're dead for other reasons.

Thanks friend Kordin.

PS Gleehennah will rise again.

[Foil]

Any known clan I think has very straightforward clanning procedures. Even the very bonused ones are pretty straightforward and active.

I think this would be an easier discussion if the OP could mention the clan they are finding difficulty joining. I'd suspect it's a hidden one.

I have my own issues with hidden clans, they tend to be the more alluring ones and the ones newer players get hung up with wanting to be in. Let's take Wolf Brother for instance. I can for one say I have no clue how to get in. I don't have one, nor have I ever actually tried to RP or put in any effort into becoming one. I would imagine the clanning process goes a bit like this;

Current member reaches out to clan "hey guys I met this really cool dude in the woods I think he would be a great fit in our pack keep your eye on him and tell me what you think!"

Person who sponsors said individual to clan then gives nominee some quests like collect X number of heads of trollocs, maybe a remort head, maybe clan master heads. Maybe a pk log, maybe some RP tending to wolves, brushing their hair and such.

After a time and said quests are completed a vote is taken and probably a large % of the guild must vote yes since it is a highly bonused and desirable guild. Probably like 80% yes or higher to gain entry.

At face value this seems like a pretty good way to keep membership low and everyone happy in the guild. I certainly don't have an issue with it. But, in reality what ends up happening is little groups end up forming and people are allowed to gatekeep institutions in the mud. You can use OOC information to bar people from entry by dissecting parts of the membership quest (I.E a pk log, or RP log) or during their observation period you could say you saw them doing something or acting in a way you didn't like.

The problem with this is for newer players they don't quite understand the dynamic of having to be friend the people outside the game before you can join them in the game concept. All they know is, wow Wolfbrothers in the books were so cool I want to be one. They spend the time running around dying in pk or telling the wrong person to go hug a root and unbeknownst to them they have just blackballed them from their perspective dream clan.

Granted above is completely hypothetical and I am not picking on Wolf Brothers in any way here. I have no clue what your clanning process is, I am sure I am not right I was just creating a scenario.

That being said, I am still very against people being forced to do away with the mystery that is hidden clans even if I do think that small cliques dominate them and gatekeep them.

[Stomp]

Delete Black Talon or at least their bonuses. Most OP and gate kept clan in the game.

[Jael]

Transfer them all to wolfbro so they can really enjoy a truly bonused class

[Jecks]

Transfer them all to wolfbro so they can really enjoy a truly bonused class

Hahaha

[Paigey]

Since it came up, Dragonsworn is no longer automated. Clans with warrants/assisting mobs will always make automated clanning dangerous.

The impression I'm under is - Imms in general are very skeptical about "intro ranks". If someone is in, let them be in. Being booted would be traumatic for most players.

I've clanned people before in a clan where I never received any feedback at all from the clan. Like clanned 5 people over the span of a month where no one else from the clan ever said a word. Jokingly, I think it was a positive process because instead of the players playing for 2 weeks, getting clanned and then quitting they instead - got clanned, played for 2 weeks in the clan and then quit. See what I did there

But there were a bunch other perks. No waiting for people to give vague feedback or arbitrary judgements. No awkward tasks/quests - oh, you are a northern PKer. Let me send you to find some vague quest item in Amador. Instant feelings of comeraderie. The clan in question is not elite or special.

I can't let a thread pass without saying it - disband (but grandfather) wolfbrothers and make most of their bonuses be some sort of rank 8 / earned / whatever pathway.

Last thing before you quote my post and write "tldr"

Off topic, but we have to work to reduce major negative experiences for people.

-Character destruction
-Unnecessary declannings
-Events where you can feel the agony on a clan forum. Dragonsworn/CoL war stands out.
-Bizarre exploding fights between Imms and players that don't need to happen. (Borderguard forum, ugh)

[Zarth]

I am in favor of radical transparency. All clans should be visible, all bonuses and penalties should be posted. I also think that almost all clans have the same main requirement: do enough people in the clan like you?

[Foil]

Oddly enough with such a short post and making a counterargument at the same time might have swayed my opinion. I think back on what I said previously and with Zarth's eloquent way of putting it he might have won me over.

Perhaps everything should just be out in the open. There really isn't much reason for hidden clans I guess. All of us know they exist. If a clan is highly bonused there should be a lot of oversight on who gets in. It shouldn't be left solely to player discretion. We can say what we want about how we are impartial and fair but we all know the truth is, we don't like everyone for one reason or another. We use OOC evidence to dislike peoples alts. I can't believe for one second that someone could make a new character, remain completely unknown and still be offered a spot in a clan like Wolf Brother or Black Talon. I guess when I think about it, it is unfair. I never really cared as neither seemed to interest me much but I can see how some people may feel disillusioned by these processes.

If you want to leave it up to player discretion there needs to be clear reasons why that particular character cannot join a particular clan. Sadly every no vote if thought to be unjust should be investigated. People should have a clear path of progression on any alt they choose to play.

People have made good arguments here and I have changed my position. Which I probably should have changed earlier considering how many times I was denied from Chosen and how bitter it turned me towards the people in it and playing the game as a whole.

[byrg]

Said this in discord... but I'll say it here too:

I mean... honestly... secret bonuses just lead to people overestimating the bonuses and complaining about them anyway, while the secret ppl go "no its not that"... just put dung out in the open and be done with it.