LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

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Nunzio
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:47 am
Location: USA, Virginia

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Nunzio » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:18 am

Oh, and the children mobs also want to play with them always

Nylen
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:18 am

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Nylen » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:06 am

A Hero LS remort type thing would be pretty neat. Something that you could work toward and accumulate without relying on being voted into something. The cool thing about DS remorts is it's tied to effort over time and not dependent on votes and such. Would give accomplished players something to work toward that don't necessarily want to just make a new alt to master.

I like the idea of all human mobs assisting, would be neat, unique, and quite powerful (if it's possible through current code). Would have to think through all of the potential gameplay impacts though, as I am sure there could be issues around interactions with justice clans and warranting. Some things to consider: What if the Hero is a former Gaidin and wants to go to Amador? What if the hero is a former CoL? How would this be handled RPishly without losing their former identity and convictions?

Alternatively, perhaps the blademaster flag could be used instead to avoid RP conflicts since it's agnostic to politics. The altqp-equivalent merits that are earned could simulate training as a blademaster, and at 1500 perhaps you keep your clan, get the blademaster flag, and some bonuses along with it? I suppose the conflict here is that already bonused clans would have issues with stacking any bonuses unless it was made into a separate clan again, but then that probably has its own issues, especially since RPishly being a blademaster shouldn't preclude one from also being in another clan (like Turak - SS, Lan - Gaidin, Eamon - CoL, Tam - Formerly Illian Companions).

I guess it all depends on what the bonuses would be.

livendros
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:25 am

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by livendros » Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:48 pm

This kind of stuff might as well be on the no way in hell list sorry to be a downer it is fun to speculate though!

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Callesa » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:44 am

Why should it be on the no way in hell list?

We desperately need a LS remort, because it is really horrible that the only logical next step for the "better" players is to leave the LS and damage it while doing so. And the nice thing about my idea is mainly the fact that it would inspire people to stay and do stuff on LS, and the LS would profit both from the people attempting to remort and the remorted ones.

This idea may not be perfect, but I am convinced the LS definitely needs some remort. The current bonus options are simply not enough, because they don't even have the same purpose. The Gaidin were downed (based on what the Gaidin say, I don't have one, but Ciegon really said that compared to a few changes ago, we are now more like unclanneds, when trying to smob together. A bonded pair!) and also come with other limits that make it not an equivalent to remorts (remorts on DS are not seen as the enemy by a part of their side, that's why we cannot keep saying that Gaidin are equivalents to remorts), the secret clans are simply not the same thing as remorts (hard to get even considereded for clanning, while anyone can start gathering altqps and give it a try. And also it is by definition an activity about just the player and getting to know and impress the right people, and later about staying secret, not about making LS profit and then becoming also a sort of public leaders of the side like the fades are).

Really, it is annoying that the who list for vast majority of my time is simply making the game on LS in some ways a hell, and the current sitution with only DS getting more and more cool bonuses for the "advanced" players (like a new grayman remort now, a revamped df system, etc) is partially to blame. Keeping some of the ambitious players on the LS would be great, but it won't happen out of pity for the LS. We need a remort and this idea is one of the valid options to think about. If you think it is bad, sure, propose something better.

My idea may not be perfect, Katherine's points, which are basically about the difficulties of balance between gameplay and total bookishness, are definitely valid. The bonuses would need to be well thought out. But it is better than to just give up on the LS. The LS is being screwed by the current "you are good at the game and want to advance=damage the LS" reality.

Mantas
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Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Mantas » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:00 am

This is a subject close to my heart.

Why?
I quit this game and didn't come back for more than 10 years because there was no goal for Mantas.

Back then there was Master and that was it for LS. No "Blademaster" flag, no rank 8 bonusses, no use for Turn Points. Getting Master was the endgame. I did not mind, but after 1 or 2 years, it got boring and I quit.

Now there are these things on LS, which is great!
Especially Rank 8 (which is the new rank 7, for those coming back) is a great goal. There's also a lot more RP options, quests to do, things to craft.

And realistically, there should not be some "champion of the light" remort for LS. LS is inherently divided, even though there hasn't been a war in a long time - it is a side that is as much at war with itself (or should be) as with the DS and the SS.
I chose Borderguard because I wanted to focus on fighting Trollocs and Fades, but there is much more to learn and explore.

Becoming an Aes Sedai is as close to a remort as LS has. It's not easy, and the White Tower life starts in all earnest once you've achieved that.
There are secret clans you can join (though I must say - it's a bit too murky for my liking, would be nice if the clanning procedures could be found out in-game instead of relying on player activity).
And you can join a LS justice clan and make it great. Go to war. Be a victor!

DS is more a unity. Fight the humans, feast.
The remorts on DS also fill a purpose: lead the horde to battle. Sadly, a lot of DS remorts recently either quit or started playing other alts. Why? Because as a remort you have a target on your back AND people have other expectations.

All in all, I now think a remort for LS is a bad idea because it makes things too bland.
Want a remort? Go DS or darkfriend.
LS is the side of diversity: Rank 8, Aes Sedai, Borderguard, Thiefbane, Illuminator, Wisdom, etc etc

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Callesa » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:24 am

Mantas wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:00 am
DS is more a unity. Fight the humans, feast.
The remorts on DS also fill a purpose: lead the horde to battle. Sadly, a lot of DS remorts recently either quit or started playing other alts. Why? Because as a remort you have a target on your back AND people have other expectations.

All in all, I now think a remort for LS is a bad idea because it makes things too bland.
Want a remort? Go DS or darkfriend.
LS is the side of diversity: Rank 8, Aes Sedai, Borderguard, Thiefbane, Illuminator, Wisdom, etc etc
And that's the heart of the problem, that you perhaps cannot see because you probably play in the american time zones.

Because vast majority of my time on (whether it is morning, evening, or until midnight, with things improving around 1am), there are 10-14 players, out of which 3-4 are high level, out of which 1-2 are DFs, because that's the logical next step. And you get 2-4 people on the DS. See the problem? How is LS supposed to play in such an environment? The last 1 or 2 not lowbie LS are there just to be scalp source for the rest, no matter what you actually want to do.

The thing is that the current environment that highly favours DS as the option for advanced players damages the opportunities to enjoy LS for a large part of the day. It is simply hard to play Aes Sedai, or almost anything, when you are playing mostly with statters or DFs/DS. As an Aes Sedai, I simply have a hard time even helping a lowbie exp, I will get attacked and have noone to call for help. And how are the Wisdoms and similar people you mention supposed to play, or should they RP with the DFs? and so on.

While I agree that improvements like lots of Rank 8 bonuses are great (I intend to try to reach it), they are clearly not motivating enough, otherwise people would play their LS masters instead of the DFs.

And no, it is simply not true that Aes Sedai is close to a remort. Many others get clanned weaves, for example the known DFs, Damane, and others, we are not special anymore. Many advantages were removed, we have the hp cap (which really makes anything solo much harder than before, it really is a huge blow to being able to play without a group of people) and only self castable WvD now, we are extremely far from remort bonuses.

Rhahr
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Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Rhahr » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:10 am

Dreadlords and Aes Sedai are pretty comparable, with a couple small differences, but in a vacuum we're pretty similar to maybe a Red Aes Sedai. We both can practice Shield, Reds have zone sense and we have rats/ravens. Dreadlords have higher SPs, Aes Sedai have issuable angreals. Our clan equipment is a fair bit better though and I guess our statcaps aren't the same as regular channelers, so we likely have higher str, but most of those perks aren't really important when fighting other channelers.

So I think calling Aes Sedai an "end goal" for LS can be justified in terms of pure character power, the journey of course is another and I imagine many have been scared off going through the motions of the Tower, but with the recent changes to WT(past 7-8 years) it seems very much doable even for the people who do not want to jump through RP hoops for months.

Unsure what Ciegon means, a Warder with his Sedai online is basically the same as it has always been, the changes largely affect Warders without their sedai online losing multibash. So if the two of you are bonded, you should still be the same powerhouse as always.

I loved that rank 8s got some bonuses, am sure it incentivized more people to play their masters. So I'll second some of what Mantas said, but I don't agree with the reasoning that there can't be remort options for LS/SS.
Would be neat with some remort options for LS/SS, doesn't have to be something over the top, but would definitely be nice to have something to spice things up. They had that idea for an ogier remort for SS rank8, that seemed pretty funky, hopefully it can get finished at some point now that we have some folks coding.
I don't believe it would change anything as much as you think. Don't think the people who are playing DFs, wouldn't be playing DFs even if there was a Hero of the Horn or whatever remort option for LS. Perhaps they'd try for both :)

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Callesa » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:59 pm

Rhahr wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:10 am
Unsure what Ciegon means, a Warder with his Sedai online is basically the same as it has always been, the changes largely affect Warders without their sedai online losing multibash. So if the two of you are bonded, you should still be the same powerhouse as always.
No, it's not. We are right now ending our bond with Ciegon, because we are trash for smobbing. It is worse to smob together, than if I smob with another totally random character. There are no real bonuses, the multibash is bad now, the autorescue becomes even a problem instead of an advantage, I cannot wvd him but cannot buff a minion, I just lose 20 sps that are sorely missing.

The AS-Warder pair is right now total worthless trash. And it is really sad that some of these things are a recent change. Just when I finally got time to play and do something I've always wanted to try, and when I found a Warder in my timezone (which would also solve a big part of my problem with finding groups to do stuff with), the bond was changed to totally useless. I get absolutely nothing, zone sense is simply not worth the loss of 20 sps.

So how is my AS supposed to be an equivalent to a remort? I do not get the Red bonuses on my own, I do not really get any bond bonuses (but rather a huge malus), and the clanned weaves are there for several other clans too, nothing special about that.

Either make AS great again (up the hp cap, so that I can at least kill one serpent exp mob without risking to die, make the AS capable of WvD their Warder so that we can smob together), or stop saying how it is an equivalent to a remort. RIght now, it is trash, if we cannot do even stupid Belroi together.
I don't believe it would change anything as much as you think. Don't think the people who are playing DFs, wouldn't be playing DFs even if there was a Hero of the Horn or whatever remort option for LS. Perhaps they'd try for both :)
I believe it would make those people try both and spread the time more evenly. You would have some people trying to ls remort, while others would be trying to ds remort, instead of them all just trying to ds remort at once.

livendros
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:25 am

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by livendros » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:12 pm

Callesa wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:44 am
Why should it be on the no way in hell list?

We desperately need a LS remort, because it is really horrible that the only logical next step for the "better" players is to leave the LS and damage it while doing so. And the nice thing about my idea is mainly the fact that it would inspire people to stay and do stuff on LS, and the LS would profit both from the people attempting to remort and the remorted ones.

This idea may not be perfect, but I am convinced the LS definitely needs some remort. The current bonus options are simply not enough, because they don't even have the same purpose. The Gaidin were downed (based on what the Gaidin say, I don't have one, but Ciegon really said that compared to a few changes ago, we are now more like unclanneds, when trying to smob together. A bonded pair!) and also come with other limits that make it not an equivalent to remorts (remorts on DS are not seen as the enemy by a part of their side, that's why we cannot keep saying that Gaidin are equivalents to remorts), the secret clans are simply not the same thing as remorts (hard to get even considereded for clanning, while anyone can start gathering altqps and give it a try. And also it is by definition an activity about just the player and getting to know and impress the right people, and later about staying secret, not about making LS profit and then becoming also a sort of public leaders of the side like the fades are).

Really, it is annoying that the who list for vast majority of my time is simply making the game on LS in some ways a hell, and the current sitution with only DS getting more and more cool bonuses for the "advanced" players (like a new grayman remort now, a revamped df system, etc) is partially to blame. Keeping some of the ambitious players on the LS would be great, but it won't happen out of pity for the LS. We need a remort and this idea is one of the valid options to think about. If you think it is bad, sure, propose something better.

My idea may not be perfect, Katherine's points, which are basically about the difficulties of balance between gameplay and total bookishness, are definitely valid. The bonuses would need to be well thought out. But it is better than to just give up on the LS. The LS is being screwed by the current "you are good at the game and want to advance=damage the LS" reality.
I did not say it should. I said it might as well be. There have been plenty of time if the staff wanted to go in this direction they could have. The only thing I have ever seen is an ogier. Yet now they have greymen? Like I'm saying it's fun to speculate and the books leave room for lots of cool ideas it's just not going to happen is what I'm saying. Also reading your last post about not being able to do even belroi... you should be able to do that solo as an AS. itll take time but can be done. That's a big if I recall correctly anything you can blind the actual leader on you should be able to do by yourself.

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: LS remort idea: Heroes of the Horn

Post by Callesa » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:30 pm

livendros wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:12 pm
I did not say it should. I said it might as well be. There have been plenty of time if the staff wanted to go in this direction they could have. The only thing I have ever seen is an ogier. Yet now they have greymen? Like I'm saying it's fun to speculate and the books leave room for lots of cool ideas it's just not going to happen is what I'm saying. Also reading your last post about not being able to do even belroi... you should be able to do that solo as an AS. itll take time but can be done. That's a big if I recall correctly anything you can blind the actual leader on you should be able to do by yourself.
Yes, DS are getting another cool remort (to further motivate people to damage LS), while LS gets nothing. LS gets rank 8 bonuses, but loses herald quests, so that it is even harder to reach them.

"If I recall correctly", when was the last time you tried? Was it before or after the hp cap? Right now, we were trying with Ciegon and it was taking so long it repoped. Twice.

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