What times of the day are better-without MCs?

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Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Callesa » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:02 am

Eol wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:18 pm
(1) Known killer MCs is unfortunately sort of what we asked for. There was frustration in the past with people gliding in from unknown to DL for various reasons.

(2) Anyone with 4 friends could do this. 5 MCs could just as easily be 5 damane.

(3) This whole thing is exacerbated by the fact that channelers remain too strong. We're never going to address weaves damage, but we can address channeler physicality through removing WVD and Armor. I'm going to keep harping on that because it doesn't require coding. The bash calculator really tore open the broken nature of bashing verse weaving. An adequately equipped channeler really shouldn't lose. Additionally, we need to go after spells in which players don't use them by consensus except when it suits them.

I agree that a known df phase is in general a good thing and what we've been asking for. It is much preferable to the old way and it also lowers the incentive to just DL by damaging your clan.

But I cannot agree with point 3. If you do that, I cannot even really play my FC anymore. No, channelers are overall not too strong, but these are characters with various kinds of bonuses stacking together and the problem is their numbers, not their existence.

But no, 5 damane wouldn't do the same damage, they don't have travel and sleep. I've had one MC try sleep on me, and at least one actively hunts people with Travel. Damane cannot. Also, Damane are easy to prove and warrant, we see them channeling, and they are publicly admiting their clan. With the MCs, it's not just about the Known status. They are doing the same thing before, but it is hard to prove (and sometimes, if they do it right, there's the dead men tell no tales), and therefore they get harboured in various places.
Atkins wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:22 pm
I'm not quite sure why a darkfriend should be getting taint protection. That doesn't really make sense to me, they are the lowest of the low rp wise right so why do they get the dark lords blessing? Get rid of that and this all gets a lot smoother. Df's can earn their evil channie powers via the df process and it is suddenly a much more enjoyable game.
Yes, this is a huge issue. I though only the DLs are protected from the Taint by the Dark One! If all you need is to become DF, which is not RPish, in general DFs in the books are not that valuable until they really really prove themselves. I'd expect logically to see DFs tainted, which would make them play a bit differently, and perhaps have their Taint removed as a clan bonus in DL.
Xephiroth wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:45 pm
One thing I noticed and won't tolerate (not related to the original poster): IC hatred of DFs is great. Sometimes this leaks into OOC hatred of the player including lots of ooc assumptions about the player. I consider this a form of online bullying/trolling. And while it doesn't effect me personally, it might more vulnerable people. I will always call this out and if the individual persists after warnings - report. We should have a zero tolerance policy but also educate people when they cross the IC/OOC line - they might not realise: Again, always consider putting yourself in the shoes of someone more vulnerable. The reason I bring this up is that you get a lot of this kind of behaviour when you pay more nefarious characters and we should all be constantly emphasising the difference between a game and real life.
That's an important perspective and I agree. I have no problem OOC, I don't consider these players to be any bullies or anything, I am in general happy for other trying various paths in the game But we have a gameplay problem, that the system generalized too many, which is combined with tons of bonuses, and tons of annoying things for the general LS.

Honestly, I think the issue that needs changing the most are some of the gameplay mechanisms, we need shorter same side noquit (that's the most annoying thing that touches the most people imho), and I definitely would love not to lose gatecodes after every death (I was so looking forward to this weave and had to give it up in the curent situation). The frequent XP multipliers help people not suffer too much, if they avoid the andor trainer mob zones for safety. But it is not enough.
Rhahr wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:19 am
It will probably correct itself as being a Known with a playerbase consisting of a few statters and some semi afkish high level players isn't much fun either, probably more enjoyable to either alt and try to kill the other Known who is online or go smob/pk up north. As Kilgore mentioned, likely just people enjoying their new toy for a bit and then you'll probably see a decline in activity, as having no one to kill isn't much fun.
No, it's not about "no one to kill". They have targets, but it happens to be the same people over and over again. I am not too knowledgeable about DFs, but wouldn't it make sense to for example limit how many kills of each type/clan/person you can use? And as various people said, it is not purely about fun, it is hoarding tons of altqps to get their bonuses. So unless you propose everybody just not playing whenever a couple MCs are on, I don't think this point of view really applies.

zankou
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:17 am

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by zankou » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:21 am

Df’s aren’t handed taint protection. They have to earn that as they rank up. Also, damane are easy to warrant etc but known dfs are also warranted so I don’t understand that comparison. Thirdly, are any of the known dfs using sleep and stab? I know there’s usually some sleep stab mc wandering around but the known dfs I’ve seen have been pretty fair and not going for cheap kills. With low player numbers and now that everyone and their brother is being allowed to bot, numbers ratio is a problem. No way to limit that without screwing at least a few players though.

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Callesa » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:43 am

zankou wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:21 am
Df’s aren’t handed taint protection. They have to earn that as they rank up. Also, damane are easy to warrant etc but known dfs are also warranted so I don’t understand that comparison. Thirdly, are any of the known dfs using sleep and stab? I know there’s usually some sleep stab mc wandering around but the known dfs I’ve seen have been pretty fair and not going for cheap kills. With low player numbers and now that everyone and their brother is being allowed to bot, numbers ratio is a problem. No way to limit that without screwing at least a few players though.
There's one point I really meant and that got lost in the thread: The problem are not purely known darkfriend MC. It is the combination of them with just MCs who are known MCs but not known DFs, unknown MCs, and DLs. The fact that these all MCs together often make 1/4 of the overall who list.

I dislike that this has turned mainly to a discussion about one specific combination of several factors, because that is not the only point.
The Sleep was attempted by an MC, who was not a known DF (not sure which one anymore). Known MCs before becoming known darkfriends are not easily warranted everywhere.

And the main argument I was trying to make was not "get rid of the DF MCs", not at all. It was mainly:
-make being a normal LS suck less (by shortening same side noquit for example)
-don't make some of key parts of LS game now (personal trainer, lugard market) be just a bait

I am not complaining about getting killed, even though it really sucks that my timezones prevent me from a lot of fun stuff and instead put me to this situation. I am not complaining about people having fun with trying to remort. I am complaining that some of the current game features combined with the current common wholist composition make being LS more annoying.

Rhahr
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:45 pm

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Rhahr » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:09 am

reducing no quit to 5 for LS as well - I want to say DS has 5 tic no quit or had at some point? - would be nice, we've already reduced the circle time to that amount.

To the x/y/z being bait, I think that is probably more a matter of preparation. There's always been the chance of being attacked by whoever, so I think you just need to carry that with you when you go out exping/smobbing. Keep checking where, have notice on, pay attention the wholist, make a note of the setup of the active murderers/dfs if you encounter them, learn the spams around the areas you usually frequent etc. Tbh I think carrying a noloc probably goes a long way as Isabel mentioned, since people are generally rather lazy and if you don't show up on locates, you're likely fairly safe.

Vannor
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:05 pm

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Vannor » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:56 am

To touch on some points, and I can't publicly say more without invoking imm wrath;

1) Taint protection isint just handed out to DFs, it's very much earnt, and isint given early by any means. Of all the paths to known, doing unknown MC is undeniably hardest. HP cap, taint and you can't just walk around wielding the big weapons to hide means you're always in suboptimal setups. If your solution is to change taint, what's your solution when it's FCs instead of MCs.

It's very obvious oocly very quickly if you're trying to hide that you're an MC. I think most towards the end knew I was an MC and were setting about trying to prove it.

2) Damane is substantially easier than playing a known DF. For many reasons that I'm not sure if I'm allowed to disclose. We have certain bonuses they don't but overall I'd trade those things for some of the things damane have without giving it a second thought. I'm not even entirely sure why we're making the comparison

3) Known DF play style is very much similar to predator vs prey mentality. The same as if a HoL stabber is online and you're on your Tower FC, you have to adjust the way you play and be more vigilant.

4) Yes I hear Callesa in saying that the issue is prevalence of the amount of active Known DFs at the moment. But a wholist dominated by knowns just anecdotal, or at least isint true for me. I haven't been online with another Known DF in recent weeks aside from night before last when we found you WB. I highly doubt you'll see a concentration of so many knowns at once for a long time.

5) I agree with the noquit change, even if I suspect it means 15mins remains for knowns. The admin want this to be the hardest goal in the game. It is. If you disagree with me, give it a go yourself and see how you go.

Known DF is fun, it's fun to play the bad guy, I don't mind RPing that for you guys when I'm online. To reiterate what some have said in earlier posts, I know the known cohort primarily at the moment aren't out to lame you, we try to load well so it incentivises killing us, and we don't want to farm newbies and smobbers.

Atkins
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:55 pm

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Atkins » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:35 am

I'm not sure what is fofy here but i'll put it this way. You don't have to earn that taint protection by going through the fires of pk. You are essentially a merchant spy. I'm not saying its not hard, but it isn't relevant to channeling. The point is from the moment you are actively pking you have the protection. I'm don't think you, or the other mc dfs, should be screwed over but I do think that channeling darkfriends aren't productive within the current game meta.

Faiz
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:21 am

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Faiz » Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:03 am

Xephiroth makes great points. You can also count me out. I haven't pked in a few weeks and don't plan to play this character for the foreseeable future. If I ever do I'll probably go back to abs/bash which was honestly the most fun I had on Faiz with regard to pk.

Callesa, I hope imms hear you on the points you're making about LS. The one suggestion I can think of is to befriend the players you do see (on whatever alts) and talk them into alting so they can smob with you. I remember when Atkins wanted to hit justice and I heard about it while on Faiz and I alted to a character I could help him out on because he's fun to fight.

Stryker
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:34 am

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Stryker » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:50 pm

Magdan wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:58 pm
Just like this stryker guy I fought yesterday. Man that guy was such a complete coward lol. Dude ran from tv, to wg, to ef wg, to chico on foot, to wg, to blight, then sat in akkad. All the while making silly rude emotes. Because he didn't want or like to pk charge I'm guessing? Dude was resting in a charge room and got charged. Then he whined like the biggest lil bitch and ran for his life popping vials all along the way. Instead of simply fighting. If your fighting me solo I attempt very few charges. I'm charge because the game loves rogues right now up north. Which is where I pk. I still died to a perfectly timed flee stab the other day. Because hey that's life.
I was handing in exp scalps and didn't want to pk. You aren't owed pk. Two vials to hand in my exp scalps and upset you is a price worth paying.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by isabel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:12 pm

Does seem like bad RP for DS though to run away from PK. I know many on DS are doing it but it feels more like an LS thing to do.

Maybe DS should get more xp perks :twisted:

Callesa
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: What times of the day are better-without MCs?

Post by Callesa » Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:38 am

Rhahr wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:09 am
reducing no quit to 5 for LS as well - I want to say DS has 5 tic no quit or had at some point? - would be nice, we've already reduced the circle time to that amount.

To the x/y/z being bait, I think that is probably more a matter of preparation. There's always been the chance of being attacked by whoever, so I think you just need to carry that with you when you go out exping/smobbing. Keep checking where, have notice on, pay attention the wholist, make a note of the setup of the active murderers/dfs if you encounter them, learn the spams around the areas you usually frequent etc. Tbh I think carrying a noloc probably goes a long way as Isabel mentioned, since people are generally rather lazy and if you don't show up on locates, you're likely fairly safe.
I know all the basics and I am not complaining about the risk of being attacked. I am complaining about a week of being attacked all the time in those places, making them unusable for me. I know all these things, I would just love to not have to give up on exp mobs (for example). What worth is playing the game, if all I can do most of the time is avoid anything I would like to do?

Yes, carrying a no loc is awesome, if you can afford to get many and many new ones for requips. To reequip such things, you for example need to smob a lot. For that, you need people. For that, you need to live in america, to get the right time zones.
Vannor wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:56 am

3) Known DF play style is very much similar to predator vs prey mentality. The same as if a HoL stabber is online and you're on your Tower FC, you have to adjust the way you play and be more vigilant.
As I said a million times, I don't complain about having to adapt, I complain about having to adapt during vast majority of my time online, which makes the game rather annoying.

4) Yes I hear Callesa in saying that the issue is prevalence of the amount of active Known DFs at the moment. But a wholist dominated by knowns just anecdotal, or at least isint true for me. I haven't been online with another Known DF in recent weeks aside from night before last when we found you WB. I highly doubt you'll see a concentration of so many knowns at once for a long time.
Again, I said it plenty of times and even put this in the thread title: the problem are not just the knowns. The problem is the sum of known df known mc+ unknown df/no df and known mc + unknown mc right now, and it's ratio towards the rest of ls. Please, could everyone stop pretending "known DF" was the title? It is not.

5) I agree with the noquit change, even if I suspect it means 15mins remains for knowns. The admin want this to be the hardest goal in the game. It is. If you disagree with me, give it a go yourself and see how you go.

Known DF is fun, it's fun to play the bad guy, I don't mind RPing that for you guys when I'm online. To reiterate what some have said in earlier posts, I know the known cohort primarily at the moment aren't out to lame you, we try to load well so it incentivises killing us, and we don't want to farm newbies and smobbers.
[/quote]

And as I've said, I do not blame you for having fun and going this totally legit path. I just think a combination of factors simply makes this path better at the expense of the LS. If we could get some things to suck less, such as the same side no quit, and not losing gatecodes several times a day, that would be already nice.

If you are simply attacking those few people on the LS left in some time zones, it is logical, you are acting coherently with your char, with the remort conditions, and the rules. So, it is a question, whether those rules are well designed right now for the playerbase composition we have.

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