Bonded AS HP Draining

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Jestin
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by Jestin » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:40 pm

Is really broken/strange and needs to be fixed. Does anyone feel like they want to argue for the status quo?

Suggestions:

1. Just remove it and give AS an extra 20-30 hps while bonded. Also remove SP malus while bonded
2. Keep it, but make a multiple of 3.0x or higher on the drain. Every 1 hp below 0 the AS has, it's 3 hps for the gaidin.

Discuss!

Kitiara
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:53 pm

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by Kitiara » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:07 pm

As someone who has drained Ominas heavily while I scrambled to get away... ... yes this feels op and silly. I can think of at least 3 times when I should have been ripped but got away, healed Ominas a few times before DS caught up, and suddenly the AS/W pair that should have been low/dead were still in great fighting shape. (and I would not be surprised if there were more than 3)

Also there is at least one time where I was stabbed while Ominas was on but many zones away... and I should have ripped for sure. It was not intentional... but it is broken

Idk what the solve is as I do enjoy the bookishness of being bonded being a significant advantage... Jestins ideas are fine... getting rid of the SP malus would be great, as I never understood the point of it from a bookish stand point... Given that HPs are capped at 280, boosting them to 300 or 310 for bonded AS would probably be a nice exchange... That kind of change feels like the same vein of changing master damage to be a flat number as you rank.

EDIT: As many know I only play Kitiara so I have zero balance input from a non FC character.

ecthus
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:11 pm

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by ecthus » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm

A 3:1 ratio would make the bond unplayable without adding any sort of balance dimension. At that point, it would be smarter for Sedai and Warder to just not bond.

It's been a while since I've played bond actively, but I always felt like it was double-edged. Easier to get kills for sure, but also a lot easier to die. If the Sedai gets bashed while already low, it's easy to die from high hps before you even realize what's happening. Most warders I can think of die more PKing with their Sedai, which is part of why so many don't do it.

The main problem is that killing pairs generally requires aggression. If you don't have the numbers to be aggressive, then that strategy is pretty difficult. Or, if you delay hitting after LS loses a fight and regroups, it just means your advantage is slipping away because the pair will benefit more from every tic than you will. I think it was probably a mistake to allow Sedai and Warders to pk separately when both are logged on.

The changes to multibash will help some of the frustrations of drain. With individual rolls on each target, warders will be missing more bashes and taking more damage from whatever they don't bash. Likewise, tying multibash to Sedai being on means that the risks and bonuses have to be played together.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by isabel » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:52 pm

I wouldn't want channeler hps to be upped. It's nicely poised at the moment. Removing sps malus on bond would be good though. It just seems pointless.

Kitiara
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:53 pm

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by Kitiara » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:29 pm

isabel wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:52 pm
I wouldn't want channeler hps to be upped. It's nicely poised at the moment. Removing sps malus on bond would be good though. It just seems pointless.
I think giving only bonded AS the hps wouldn't be game breaking... however Ecthus makes a good point about the double edged nature of bonding... I say the drain is op because I have lived a lot... Ominas would probably tell a different story being bonded to me... The real problem is AS/W pairs who are BOTH good at pk...

Jestin
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by Jestin » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:24 pm

Agree that giving the few bonded Sedai (even fewer that pk actively) an extra 20-30 hps would not be a huge game changer and definitely would be preferable to the ability to drain 400+ hps. I would personally be fine with reemoval of draining without any sort of buff, just figured people like to be given some consolation prize when getting downed.

Kitiara
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:53 pm

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by Kitiara » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:05 pm

Jestin wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:24 pm
Agree that giving the few bonded Sedai (even fewer that pk actively) an extra 20-30 hps would not be a huge game changer and definitely would be preferable to the ability to drain 400+ hps. I would personally be fine with reemoval of draining without any sort of buff, just figured people like to be given some consolation prize when getting downed.
Honestly without the hp drain there is not much in it for the AS. We get 10 extra pracs at the cost of 200gc, and we get zone sense, but we lose SP. Not sure that trade is worth it without something to replace the drain.

If we wanted to go more bookish...

-all AS get zone sense/maybe make it a rank 6 or 7.
-Bonding does the autorescue stuff
-both AS and Warder get increased hp/mvs each tic.
-I guess mulibash is fine for the Warder?
-Always see each other on Where
-When one dies the same stuff happens as now.

But then bonding is just a no brainer and there is less risk to it? Hp drain does make pk more difficult for the Warder at least??

Rodger
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:41 am

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by Rodger » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:21 pm

Could just have it be an ability, even with a flame strike type timer would be cool.

drain warder
you pull some strength and reserves from your warder. (-50 hp to warder, +50 to FC or whatever).

erulak
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by erulak » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:15 am

Word is the Warder side of bond is about to get downed, which is a good thing. Would pair well:

- Remove SP malus on bond.
- Cap HP drain at 50 hps.
- After 51 HPs is drained and AS is dead, Warder just goes berserk and can't change mood until tick.

Alison
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:09 am
Location: South Africa
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Re: Bonded AS HP Draining

Post by Alison » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:55 am

Jestin wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:24 pm
Agree that giving the few bonded Sedai (even fewer that pk actively) an extra 20-30 hps would not be a huge game changer and definitely would be preferable to the ability to drain 400+ hps. I would personally be fine with reemoval of draining without any sort of buff, just figured people like to be given some consolation prize when getting downed.
I agree with this. Remove the drain, give us the extra hps. (We get it anyway when we go low. Hence the drain factor). I can count on a few hands the bonded sedai that do actively pk and this will surely not unbalance the universe. )

Most fcs/mcs/dls got knifed when the 280 came into play. It takes some combination of activity and... other things to get to aes sedai and finding another person to play with and bond them. Then to pk. Overall the only thing that needs to change is this. To balance everything.

Keep the sps reduced pool but add us like 20 hps. Remove drain.

If this becomes an issue in the future then we can revisit the whole drain thing.

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