Balance Thoughts

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Eol
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by Eol » Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:28 pm

Interesting thread. Lot to take in.

The most fascinating idea hands down in this thread that would be a large coding change but actually impact the game and PK moment by moment - recalculating how bash is capped.

There's a lot of things about the game that if I could snap my fingers I'd change, but a day could pass before it actually affected anything. Would situations change, would justice in the world increase, yes. But it wouldn't alter two randos dudes battling out in a field.

Taking fade/warder attack away - sure.
Downing all status weaves, amen.
Downing WVD to like 10% - make it happen.
Normalize fade, dreadlord and rank 8 gear.
Fancy people's toys need to become less potent.

But the implications of the bash change above are startling. The current code is a shackle.

-But yeah. Take away Fade/Warder attack
-Treat Warders like BGs got treated back in the day. Once you master - you get master OB. Not Warder and Master OB.
-The Imms got it right the first time when they removed 1-2 handed wield. Its not game breaking but its reinforces the fancy defense weapons always win.

tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by tekela » Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:34 pm

Zarth wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:15 pm
I can understand arguments that fades and warders don't get a ton of usage out of berserk attack because they're either cowards (fades and warders) or the situation doesn't allow it (warders if Aes Sedai isn't on), but to say that berserk warders and fades aren't a cut above everything else, especially after the remove of warrior attack is insane.
I'm referring to the premise you set up -- and this:
this is assuming that the Sedai is on (though possibly not in the pk)
Is sort of having it both ways in terms of whether or not you're actually looking at 1 v 1 or 1 v 2. With Sedai online, the attack for Warders is by far stronger -- you're talking about rank 7 damage vs. rank 3-4 damage with any weapon.
Attack by itself is going to give about 60-70% more hits which maps to 60-70% more damage and pretty much outclasses anything currently. Prior to the warrior changes you could consider a berserk warrior as well in this range and so I think it's useful to compare the bonuses the fades and warders have over the warrior to see why they're still a cut above.
I don't think anybody said they're not a cut above, but fade attack at least has a stronger mitigating factors now that fade on-hit damage isn't equivalent to your run of the mill rank 6.
Discussions about chasing as a warrior:
I can see where you're coming from, but I think it's more situational than that.
Well, yeah, I think everything is more situational than the phased 1 v 1 premise you've set up as your basis. But you seem to be focused on what each class can actually realistically do within a handful of siloed scenarios and I'm telling you a good chaser is going to be better on a warrior with 90% track than a rogue or channeler without.
Eol wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:28 pm
Interesting thread. Lot to take in.

The most fascinating idea hands down in this thread that would be a large coding change but actually impact the game and PK moment by moment - recalculating how bash is capped.

There's a lot of things about the game that if I could snap my fingers I'd change, but a day could pass before it actually affected anything. Would situations change, would justice in the world increase, yes. But it wouldn't alter two randos dudes battling out in a field.

Taking fade/warder attack away - sure.
Downing all status weaves, amen.
Downing WVD to like 10% - make it happen.
Normalize fade, dreadlord and rank 8 gear.
Fancy people's toys need to become less potent.

But the implications of the bash change above are startling. The current code is a shackle.

-But yeah. Take away Fade/Warder attack
-Treat Warders like BGs got treated back in the day. Once you master - you get master OB. Not Warder and Master OB.
-The Imms got it right the first time when they removed 1-2 handed wield. Its not game breaking but its reinforces the fancy defense weapons always win.
I would have 100% agreed with taking fade berserk attack away like two or three months ago, but the way the rank-based damage works, I think it disproportionately affects fade and the offset on berserk attack is acceptable. I'd be fine with taking away berserk attack from fades if you give all of them a static +3 damage like any other rank 7. Warders, sure, whatever -- I'm sure it would affect some poor smob more than it's ever affected me pking against Warders.

Agree with normalizing fade/DL/rank 8 equipment -- though one could argue rank 8 dodge shirt has been marginalized pretty hard when it's less desirable than an orma shirt, but the combo shirt is still pretty strong.

I think fancy toys becoming less potent is why I like the damage on weapons like herons that give high parry/ob on top of that staying on par with razor swords/knife axes. Alternatively, make heron defense/ob in line with razor swords and up their damage.

WVD should be downed and weaves on people you are not directly buffing should be reduced % damage.

Warder OB being treated like BG damage is a great idea.

Also had to laugh at the "lighter weapons = more attack" thing -- do you want attack with shocklance? That's how you get attack with shocklance.

Eol
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by Eol » Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:57 pm

I write a bunch of posts that I never actually click submit on so maybe I said it/maybe I didn't, but fades/DLs not getting rank damage never made sense to me. They are undeniably masters.

The whole variations of attack thing is too complicated for me. Whenever possible, my ideas for coding change would simply focus on changing just a few numbers in a line of code that's already made. Someone wrote to me recently and if I were to summarize what they said - essentially we need to think bigger and add new things. I'm not a believer in new things. The game is essentially the way it is. I simply hope to see small revisions that adjust what is already a flawed but moistly functioning system.

Last of all, as much as I'd like to see fades fall back to reality ie. lose the current manifestation of mounted/flee sneak, or explore fades having human type moves ie. 170 instead of 270 etc, we also have to keep in mind that trolls are very dependent on fades. The classic highly mobile back and forth battles everyone thinks of are dependent on compel. If we smash fades too much we'll have to come up with something else to help trolls stay mobile. Maybe uncapping trinket moves is the answer but then we'll have some sort of new problem to deal with like non-wolfbrother 200+ move human hunters or something stabbing blight.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by isabel » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:15 am

@Tekela - I get 85 track 7 survival on all my non-hunters; rogue, fc, warrior all have this. Not sure that this is particularly a warrior bonus to get the slightly faster track? I'll get 90 and see if it changes much, but chasing/leading has always felt the same on all my non-hunters.

tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by tekela » Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:24 am

isabel wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:15 am
@Tekela - I get 85 track 7 survival on all my non-hunters; rogue, fc, warrior all have this. Not sure that this is particularly a warrior bonus to get the slightly faster track? I'll get 90 and see if it changes much, but chasing/leading has always felt the same on all my non-hunters.
What I meant was that abs pracs make it easier to get this particular thing -- you can still max out bash/weapon along with all the other pracs you could need and get 90 percent track (3 pulse tracking) by level 36. 85 track with level 7 survival requires either sacrificing defense (pracs/2h weapon) or other abilities on characters that are more prac intensive. The exception being dirks, but 2h dagger pracs are pretty silly.

Davor
Posts: 417
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Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by Davor » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:49 pm

Dirks should be removed. It’s overpowered, similar to how two handed defensive long blades were removed. Down stab! Down channelers and DL coats!!

Rig
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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:00 pm
Location: JESUS

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by Rig » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:58 pm

Davor wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:49 pm
Dirks should be removed. It’s overpowered, similar to how two handed defensive long blades were removed. Down stab! Down channelers and DL SHIRTS
FTFY

Fermin
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:16 pm

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by Fermin » Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:23 pm

The change where before a master stabber did a multiple of master damage was a pretty big nerf to all master stabbers and despite the upping of damage on daggers stab is still behind where it was, melee is ahead though so seems kind of hard to balance.

tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by tekela » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:31 pm

Fermin wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:23 pm
The change where before a master stabber did a multiple of master damage was a pretty big nerf to all master stabbers and despite the upping of damage on daggers stab is still behind where it was, melee is ahead though so seems kind of hard to balance.
While stab damage is lower on an individual basis exclusive to masters, I feel like stab damage seems to be higher for non-masters than it used to be, which pushes the aggregate damage from stabs higher. Mastering used to be a must for higher tier stab damage -- now it's more of an RNG thing where the freshly statted guy can hit as much as a master. I don't know if it's a good thing, it certainly incentivizes playing stabbers more if you know you don't need to get 1000 qps to have really effective stab or melee damage and the main difference is masters' ob and defense by virtue of postures.

Detritus
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 am

Re: Balance Thoughts

Post by Detritus » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:14 am

Interesting read, don't especially agree with all of it(particularly adding attack and it being a function of dex).
Most melee states are none of those 3.

Fades are strongest 1v1 character in game
Warders are strongest 1v2
and Wolfbro are strongest 1vMany

In a pure stand still fight I'd back this(bonded master abs warrior) character to win vs most things not fear/contagion.

Fights are very rarely stand still fights.
outside of stab
A fade will not die 1v1.
A wolf bro will not die 1v1.
Any abser can easily die 1v1.
Anyone vs a fade is hugely disadvantaged.
Conversely as a trolloc I'd quite happily fight any abs warder 1v1 without feeling disadvantaged.

FCs in general could be feast or famine in any of these lists, they have huge output potential with a lot of checks and balances that fall by the wayside when they're not alone. They're the least dependant on gear to output damage but the most dependant on gear to survive.

Your catagory of chasing, is autotrack > everything else.
Your catagory of running, class is irrelevant, it's all dependant on other factors.

Every man and his dog has capped bash vs combo and abs. Parry contributions to bash are too strong making dodge too weak.

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