Fleelag tier change

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Mhaliah
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:48 am

Fleelag tier change

Post by Mhaliah » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:32 am

Just some questions if anyone knows this information or where I can get it please let me know.

Why the removal of the 16wil tier?

What is the difference between the 12 and 16 tier?

Flee-hitting is a big part of my gameplay outside of PK.

Vampa
Posts: 496
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:45 am

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by Vampa » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:21 pm

It's a roughly 10% fleelag attenuation reduction and it's so that once people get into a finishable state they remain there longer.

Mhaliah
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:48 am

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by Mhaliah » Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:57 pm

Kk that probably wont effect my ability to solo ctfs lol

verne
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:57 pm

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by verne » Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:57 pm

fleelag will factor means that a character with 16 will currently gets their fleelag divided by four each tic, will instead get it divided by 3. So assuming that they get up to around 12 flee-lag ( the most in my admittedly small amount of pk experience ever sees) then the tic would drop you down to a .375 lag after your flee compared to a .5 second flee. Again, not enough of a pk'er to really tell how much that 1/8 of a second will matter.

But flee lag reduction is not the only benefit from high will, you also get less buildup in the first place if you have higher will. The difference between 12 wil and 16 will in terms of HOW FAST you get to to that 12 flee-lag i used as an example is 8.8 flees on average while a 16 wil person gets to that same point in 10.3 flees on average. So obviously some RNG is involved in whether you get 1 fleelag added or 2 but ON AVERAGE, 12 will gets up to 12 points of fleelag with one and half less flees than 16 will.

So what does this all mean? it means that out of the two ways that affects fleelag , the rate it is increased makes over 1.5 times as great a difference as how fast its reduced, and it's impact is felt immediately compared to fleelag reduction which comes into effect after theyve already got away. It means that if you look at how much "better" a 16 will character can get away when low than a 12 will character then the changes will take away just over a third of that advantage, but only the third that comes into effect after a tic happens (at which point they have likely already got away or died).



Now lets look at how the changes will affect flee hitting smobs, note: if you have never seen the message 'Your heartbeat races very rapidly as your forehead throbs.' then this next bit does not really apply to you. when flee hitting smobs its very common to get up above 30 or 40 fleelag points. using 36 points as our base for math stuff, thats four and a half full seconds of lag before your flee goes through. as you can imagine this is not ideal when an smob and all its minions are hammering on you. with a 16 will that will reduce it down to 9 fleelag on the tic, while a 12 will reduces it down to 12. That means you start the next tic with .375 (just over a third of a second) more lag with the new changes. Still not a huge difference the first tic, but in an smob you are going to keep at it for 3 or 4 full tics, and thats a third of a second EACH flee and compounded each tic.

So in summary, the upcoming change will very slightly affect the chances of someone with 16 will getting away when they wouldnt be able to with 12 will, but will make a drastic effect on anyone flee hitting smobs which was already almost impossible to pull off since an smob has multiple tics compounding the effect, while in pk if you never sustain the kind of flee-lag that makes this change meaningful. I like the idea of making it harder to get away when low. I like the efforts to change things to make them bettter. I dont think this will have much of an impact in the area its intended to, but will have drastic impacts for other areas such as flee hitting.

verne
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:57 pm

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by verne » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:21 pm

realized I could summarize this better, the only time the fleelag tier change will have even a slight impact in pk is if a 16 will player gets at least 10 flees in, and then gets a tic before he either gets away or dies.

This is assuming that remaining fleelag rounds down. Its not actually documented anywhere how it rounds, so it very possibly could round the amount of fleelag REDUCTION down instead and then zero it out if you only have 1 fleelag, theres no way for me to actually tell.

With changes
after 10 flees (assuming average fleelag increases) before tic
16 wil: 12 fleelag 12 wil: 13.5 fleelag (could go either way easily)

after 10 flees after tic
16 wil: 4 fleelag 12 wil: 4 fleelag


Without changes
after 10 flees before tic
16 wil: 12 fleelag 12 wil: 13.5 fleelag

after 10 flees after tic
16 wil: 3 fleelag 12 wil: 4 fleelag <----- 1/8 of a second extra lag, and even that only after 10 flees and a tic

Adael
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 am

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by Adael » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:56 pm

Fwiw your timings are off by a factor of two. 1 second ~ 4 pulses, not 8. Also, do people actually fleehit smobs and build up 30-40 pulses of fleelag? That's letting the smob get 3 rounds of combat off on you while you're trying to flee and doing nothing to them, which seems pretty counterintuitive :P.

I think one of the key points you didn't touch on is that it's easier to keep people fleelagged over continued tics, even for small amounts, with this change as it will now take people with 16+ wil one extra tic (at least) to get down to 0 pulses of fleelag.

Naerin
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 12:29 pm

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by Naerin » Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:17 pm

It's my understanding that the change only affects fleelag reduction after a tick - 16 wil characters will still build up less, but 12-16 wil all lose fleelag at the same rate.

verne
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:57 pm

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by verne » Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:09 pm

Adael wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:56 pm


I think one of the key points you didn't touch on is that it's easier to keep people fleelagged over continued tics, even for small amounts, with this change as it will now take people with 16+ wil one extra tic (at least) to get down to 0 pulses of fleelag.
My point is that this kind of fleelag is the only type of fleelag that is really going to be affected by the changes. You gather this kind of small increases over several tics when you are playing a very flee-heavy style of pk such as fleeing before the weaves/bashes land.

You don't get this kindve fleelag built up when you get low and are escaping, because you either escape out of any blocks and get clear away, or you get stuck and die. From what I have seen it is very rare to get pinballed around trying to escape for multiple tics without breaking through or dying.

The stated reasoning behind the changes was to make it easier to pin down a target that has gotten low from pk and make it so they cant instantly get away from danger as easily, but its not going to have much of an effect in that regard unless theyve already been fleeing around a bunch. You are going to feel the impact a lot MORE in flee-heavy pk styles and flee-hitting smobs than you will in escaping pk which is what it is intended to fix.

Adael
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 am

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by Adael » Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:08 pm

verne wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:09 pm
My point is that this kind of fleelag is the only type of fleelag that is really going to be affected by the changes.
I agree with this, sure.
verne wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:09 pm
You gather this kind of small increases over several tics when you are playing a very flee-heavy style of pk such as fleeing before the weaves/bashes land.
I don't really agree with this. Flee when losing against whoever you're on to reengage on someone new, flee on the out call, flee from getting aggroed in Blight or by the grass 1w orch ent, flee from trying a block to go elsewhere. There's plenty of ways someone can and will end up fleeing 2-5 times in a single tic. Being able to keep them at a consistent level of low fleelag is beneficial for when the time comes where they do end up losing a larger fight, scattering, getting caught, and fleeing more.
How often are bashes or weaves only a pulse or two off from landing (granted, confirmation/memory bias for such instances, but they're not uncommon). This change should lead to higher potential for those to land.
Time will tell how this plays out once it's actually implemented though I reckon.

Detritus
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 am

Re: Fleelag tier change

Post by Detritus » Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:22 am

What Adael said. It's a very good change for protracted fights where you can actualy potentially generate an advantage a little more each tick.

Reading Verne's explaination of this being bad for fleehitting smobs made me 1000% more in favor of this change. What she described should not be possible.

If i flee hit a smob it is the same as leveling on trees above your pay grade. I hit smob minion with flail, hit minions with flail when they assist, flee out before full combat round. Rinse repeat 5-6times until not fleeing before combat round, rest and wait for tick fleelag reduction then go again.

I'm guessing this change is bad for wvd projectile people.

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