Change to Master Damage

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
zankou
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:17 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by zankou » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:08 pm

If we all stop responding thore will run out of things to quote.

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:17 pm

zankou wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:08 pm
If we all stop responding thore will run out of things to quote.
Hey man - check Raz and my post count history on forums here. That'll speak for itself! Or, if you are someone I like and respect, ask me to talk less, and I will.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by isabel » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:23 pm

yeah v boring pk with influx of rogues/channies

abs and zerk attack made things happen every now and then. it had its place

for those who dont want to read someone's posts - there is a block/ignore option you can always use. we're in a pandemic, maybe he's lonely! :(

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:05 pm

isabel wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:23 pm
yeah v boring pk with influx of rogues/channies

abs and zerk attack made things happen every now and then. it had its place

for those who dont want to read someone's posts - there is a block/ignore option you can always use. we're in a pandemic, maybe he's lonely! :(
Can you show me? Is it the friend/foe thing?

Drybones
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:36 pm

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Drybones » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:36 pm

@ Thore log: You stood there taking damage and not dealing any until it was wound vs scratched before you started bashing ernestly. Can't expect to catch up vs most setups if each of you is in decent eq. Especially when you're down to 77 abs from 84. In addition, early zerking is relatively useless vs combo without attack, imo, zerk is now for fighting dodgers/parry.

To add my 2 cents to the general discussion: I have a hard time hating on bonused characters, even though combat bonused characters don't seem fun to me.

The way I think about it is this way: Fighting bonused characters immediately makes you change strategies, and reduces the number of strategies that can lead to victory. E.g., fighting scrat winding on Kokusho the other day. Fighting at trees was difficult b/c of the target switch. I died, but it was still a close fight. Fun, the bonus made me think rather than rely on my knee-jerk pk style. This adds complexity to PK, which ups the learning curve for new people and makes the end game more fun for experienced people. It makes it much harder to anticipate how a group fight / pk session will end. Fun.

Sometimes, based on my setup, the bonused person's setup, or the presence of multiple bonused people, this can reduce the number of strategies that can lead to victory to a very small set, often that relies on the other group taking significant risks that they are unwilling to take. This creates boredom in pk. It is very difficult for new people to recognize these paths to victory, making them feel like the odds are always stacked against them. It makes experienced people upset whenever the superior group fails to take risks, because they cannot continue pk.

The size of the gap between unbonused and bonused characters accentuates these features. Things like target switch are great bonuses, because it changes the pk dynamics, and gives the fade more options. Things like multibash are great bonuses b/c it changes the pk dynamics, and gives the warder more options. However, the second one creates a problem when multiple bonused characters are around in a way that target switch really doesn't.

Things like master damage, postures, etc. are shitty bonuses b/c they do not really change the pk dynamics, they are just flat bonuses that make it easier to win. No real effort, it doesn't force either player's mechanics to change (aside from trying to avoid additional damage). This fails to create complexity in pk, and tends to result in boredom imo. I wish these were removed, but I think that their distribution amongst lower ranks will incentivise people to rank (focus on one character perhaps), and will help reduce the power gap between bonused and unbonused characters. Kudos.

As for the fades who are upset that they lost the master damage bonus, I understand the feeling of loss. I don't understand the arguments for this being a warrior nerf necessarily. However, I hope that you can all appreciate the types of bonuses that are fun in general, versus simply annoyances for everyone but those who have ground it out [and I understand people will view these differently :)]

As always, <3 to the imms who are working on the game balance side of things. I know it's a work in progress, and I'm genuinely excited to see how things work out.

Weir
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Weir » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:51 pm

Well said, Drybones.

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:14 pm

Drybones, according to me, you're almost spot on. Almost.

"making them feel like the odds are always stacked against them" new players DO have the odds GREATLY stacked against them from the moment they try PK for two great reasons, maybe three:
  • The opposition has 20+ years of experience, knowledge, client setup/scripts/triggers and some skill (skill is fairly easy)
  • The opposition has the overpowered trophy characters that they are likely playing, with all the trophy equipment (see: Jaster, Lykan)
  • Few people, not all, have invited them in to LEARN how to lead, to ALLOW them to get you killed to LEARN gracefully from their mistakes (do we expect a 2 year player to have either of the two above? verbally on the forums we often say "just git gud. use mobs silly. learn to combat the bonuses. just flee. turn notice on. etc. but these things are often said in not a very nice manner. They are better said in the midst of PK or in the circle of light or dark after everyone they've been leading had died.)
These are just my opinions, please take them as such.
Last edited by Thore on Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ominas
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:07 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Ominas » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:58 pm

Drybones wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:36 pm
@ Thore log: You stood there taking damage and not dealing any until it was wound vs scratched before you started bashing ernestly. Can't expect to catch up vs most setups if each of you is in decent eq. Especially when you're down to 77 abs from 84. In addition, early zerking is relatively useless vs combo without attack, imo, zerk is now for fighting dodgers/parry.

To add my 2 cents to the general discussion: I have a hard time hating on bonused characters, even though combat bonused characters don't seem fun to me.

The way I think about it is this way: Fighting bonused characters immediately makes you change strategies, and reduces the number of strategies that can lead to victory. E.g., fighting scrat winding on Kokusho the other day. Fighting at trees was difficult b/c of the target switch. I died, but it was still a close fight. Fun, the bonus made me think rather than rely on my knee-jerk pk style. This adds complexity to PK, which ups the learning curve for new people and makes the end game more fun for experienced people. It makes it much harder to anticipate how a group fight / pk session will end. Fun.

Sometimes, based on my setup, the bonused person's setup, or the presence of multiple bonused people, this can reduce the number of strategies that can lead to victory to a very small set, often that relies on the other group taking significant risks that they are unwilling to take. This creates boredom in pk. It is very difficult for new people to recognize these paths to victory, making them feel like the odds are always stacked against them. It makes experienced people upset whenever the superior group fails to take risks, because they cannot continue pk.

The size of the gap between unbonused and bonused characters accentuates these features. Things like target switch are great bonuses, because it changes the pk dynamics, and gives the fade more options. Things like multibash are great bonuses b/c it changes the pk dynamics, and gives the warder more options. However, the second one creates a problem when multiple bonused characters are around in a way that target switch really doesn't.

Things like master damage, postures, etc. are shitty bonuses b/c they do not really change the pk dynamics, they are just flat bonuses that make it easier to win. No real effort, it doesn't force either player's mechanics to change (aside from trying to avoid additional damage). This fails to create complexity in pk, and tends to result in boredom imo. I wish these were removed, but I think that their distribution amongst lower ranks will incentivise people to rank (focus on one character perhaps), and will help reduce the power gap between bonused and unbonused characters. Kudos.

As for the fades who are upset that they lost the master damage bonus, I understand the feeling of loss. I don't understand the arguments for this being a warrior nerf necessarily. However, I hope that you can all appreciate the types of bonuses that are fun in general, versus simply annoyances for everyone but those who have ground it out [and I understand people will view these differently :)]

As always, <3 to the imms who are working on the game balance side of things. I know it's a work in progress, and I'm genuinely excited to see how things work out.
Great post

Skurk
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Skurk » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:02 am

Thore wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:14 pm

Few people, not all, have invited them in to LEARN how to lead, to ALLOW them to get you killed to LEARN gracefully from their mistakes (do we expect a 2 year player to have either of the two above? verbally on the forums we often say "just git gud. use mobs silly. learn to combat the bonuses. just flee. turn notice on. etc. but these things are often said in not a very nice manner. They are better said in the midst of PK or in the circle of light or dark after everyone they've been leading had died.)
I didn't experience that really. You see new players post logs in AoW asking for advice and getting plenty of constructive replies. Comes down to the players wanting to learn.

I agree, combating bonuses is easier said than done - and isn't always very fun (like drybones said, sometimes your win condition is them making mistakes - passive and boring) - but I would say generally people don't just say "git gud" as a response to a question about how to improve, they say "git gud" when you complain.

Alison
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:09 am
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Alison » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:18 am

i have a stick and it can poke things.

As a note, i dont play enough to throw in a bone here. But if there is stuff to be said.

Balancing the game might just be part of a bigger plan we not seeing atm. Lets just roll with it and let thore comment. Either way, im still here and i bet other lurkers are still here as well..

Can i possibly have a way to gate to my gaidin pls. The man has a way of going places where my gate doesnt want to go.
And then we had to misgate out of where we where after i found him..

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