Change to Master Damage

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Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:44 pm

Aureus wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:54 pm
tekela wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:14 am
Dovain wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:51 pm
But as far as the shirt, I couldn't find the post, but I thought the stated reasoning was higher DB to help counter mounted bash. A DL is MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS FCs, especially mounted master bonded gaidin, which are in nearly every pk, and if I remember right from the quick numbers I checked, 5 db is an improvement for sure, but doesn't fully outweigh mounted bash.
It was a stupid justification then too. They're not MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS. You named three things and DS typically has more in any given situation (masters and warriors) and there are plenty of mounted DS/SS characters that they fight especially after free-remort month.

Also, what are you comparing when you say it doesn't "fully outweigh" mounted bash? Trollocs quaffing teas to get 21 strength also close (and very slightly exceed) the gap just on the basis of OB -> bash % on the riding bash bonus on everything except bash from master warders.

DLs wearing those shirts effectively have 19 dex relative to every other dodge character and don't really give up all the things (or anything) you'd think would justify that.

Also, jesus christ, Thore. :P
Here are the relative numbers. For reference, currently 21 str ~= riding, but as stat inflation creeps up overall Riding becomes slightly better than 21 str. Stat compression helped here. (This assumes a 16/18/15 channeler with 99 dodge and full gear, level 5 ride.)

Code: Select all

+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| Scenario                | Str | Con | Weapon % | Bash % | Master? | Race    | Ride    | Weapon        | Gear | Trinks | Basher OB | Basher PB | Basher Weapon Wt | Victim DB | Bash Chance |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| LS vs DL (no shirt)     |  19 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Human   | Level 7 | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       193 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          45 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| Troll vs Channie        |  19 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Trolloc | No      | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       186 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          32 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| 20 Str Troll vs Channie |  20 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Trolloc | No      | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       191 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          38 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| 21 Str Troll vs Channie |  21 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Trolloc | No      | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       197 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          45 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| LS vs DL (shirt)        |  19 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Human   | Level 7 | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       193 |        21 |             17.5 |       150 |          39 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
So a DL shirt is ~= to a LS channeler fighting a 20 str trolloc. Slightly worse, actually.

There are lots of other variables you can throw in (fades and warders and damane, oh my!), but this sort of comparison was the basis for the selection.
Dropping the m-firetruckin' knowledge bomb. It says if the people with all the numbers know the most about all the numbers. Haha!

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:47 pm

Kryyg wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:07 pm
I don’t think anyone argues that in a small selection of PK, dreadlords will get bashed 4% more. They have plenty of bonuses to make that a paltry downside. I.e. extra sps to be permanently WVD before every fight and still have the sps of a normal channeler. That bash won’t do much damage.

Anyways. Let’s all redouble our efforts on fixing lag. And instead of downing damage we should have upped everyone to master damage and just remove that as a bonus. Like my point above, masters OB and PB is plenty of bonus on its own. The game needs to move faster less damage is not the way, especially with half tics implemented many years ago. Too much HP regen and we just lowered damage.
I agree with you but I think you're a little bit wrong, perhaps, if we are predicting the future at least. I would make a small wage, how about my only heron long, pristine, which has been stored for ages. You've got to pay the gold to get it out. If I'm wrong, you get it. It'll likely still be sitting there anyway. Let's put a calendar event a year out from now and see if damage is re-upped after the Immortals have nerfed everything to zero to figure out where the problems are. And then taking the time to slowly or methodically or maybe quickly and methodically buff things back into a healthy state. You interested? Maybe you could put in a shock lance. I've always wanted one of those.

Don't think anyone, including Immortals, would disagree that the game needs more damage than damage reduction. Takes a while to get there though. Let's give him some time.

P.S. Yes please let's get a second server in the UK, let's leave the Aussies to the dingos, and Itesh please let's get some millisecond datum between mud functions and FIND OUT WHY WE LAG. It's not that hard, even from black box testing. Maybe we, the players, should do something around here instead of complaining. Well, someone beside me, I've got a AFK indefinitely...

tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by tekela » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:35 pm

Dovain wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:45 pm
Trolloc hunters I believe max out at 20 strength. (at least statting a bearish, hunters are limited to 20 str. please correct me if I'm wrong about hunters maxing out at 20 str with a tea)
This is incorrect. Am routinely 21 strength on my 19 strength trolloc master ranger.
Per the bash calculator, with the same stats, same full abs kit with full parry trinks, 99% weapon and bash pracs, assuming a 21 strength master brave offensive trolloc, and a 19 strength master brave offensive riding (lvl 6 ride) human, the human will bash the same DB approximately 2% better. Level 7 ride improves that by another % or so. If you're arguing that there are more fades than human masters, that's just ridiculous IMO. Maybe my phrasing was wrong, since I was counting the mounted/master/warrior as one combined thing, not 3 separate things. The important part being mounted bash.
I'm saying there are plenty of 19 strength trolloc masters and plenty of them are warriors and every single one of them can quaff to get 21 strength. THEN you get to fades, and there are plenty. Your numbers also sound kind of off-- there was about a 0-1% chance difference between a 21 strength trolloc basher and a 19 strength mounted basher against the same DB, last I checked, assuming about a 4-5 OB difference (in favor of the trolloc). Aureus' numbers seem to pretty much be in line with that.

Even if there was a difference in favor of the mounted character, being mounted comes with its own set of maluses. There are really no maluses to being dismounted that quaffing something can't fix for a trolloc.

Aureus wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:54 pm

Here are the relative numbers. For reference, currently 21 str ~= riding, but as stat inflation creeps up overall Riding becomes slightly better than 21 str. Stat compression helped here. (This assumes a 16/18/15 channeler with 99 dodge and full gear, level 5 ride.)
Wait, what? If Riding 19 strength is about the same as 21 strength dismounted, exactly what form of stat inflation is making that slightly better than 21 strength? Maybe we're not talking about the same "stats", but that doesn't change unless people are inflating beyond the current maxes of the relevant stats (LS hunter/warrior str and channie dex), which isn't possible. If you're talking about equipment/ob inflation, I'm not aware of anything that would change that besides the prevalence of strength teas for DS, which has increased a ton over the years.

I think we're about a decade and a half into stat inflation, so we can assume that most trolloc bashers quaffing teas will have 21 strength, just like we're assuming that every LS basher has 19 strength and is mounted.
So a DL shirt is ~= to a LS channeler fighting a 20 str trolloc. Slightly worse, actually.
Which is to say, a 21 strength trolloc vs LS channeler is already about the same or very close to a mounted human vs. DL sans shirt.

Jestin
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Jestin » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:12 am

I'll save you guys the pages of debate. DLs are much more powerful than master AS even without the shirt. All of the things you guys said but you missed a bunch of other things.

Honestly I think most DLs quit because it gets really boring when you don't take risks. You have to either be ok with constantly ganking the other side of you're not a risk taker, or dying frequently if you are one. There's no happy medium like there is with other characters. The non risk takers just eventually end up getting bored with the non stop ganking pk and quit.

But the AS draining bullshit by far takes the trophy for being the most overpowered and frankly broken thing ever. Desperately needs a fix. Nuts that it's still in the game years after Eileen and Aenor implemented it so that their AS/warder pair became unkillable.

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:14 am

Jestin wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:12 am
I'll save you guys the pages of debate. DLs are much more powerful than master AS even without the shirt. All of the things you guys said but you missed a bunch of other things.

Honestly I think most DLs quit because it gets really boring when you don't take risks. You have to either be ok with constantly ganking the other side of you're not a risk taker, or dying frequently if you are one. There's no happy medium like there is with other characters. The non risk takers just eventually end up getting bored with the non stop ganking pk and quit.

But the AS draining bullshit by far takes the trophy for being the most overpowered and frankly broken thing ever. Desperately needs a fix. Nuts that it's still in the game years after Eileen and Aenor implemented it so that their AS/warder pair became unkillable.
Agreed, it's so stupid, as someone who has a Sedai, and gets stabbed all the time. Ask Dean. Silly coding idea (gosh I can't wait until we can get features via coding) for this:
  • Sedai hits 0 HP and goes incap.
  • If Gaidin is out of room and Sedai then dies after some # of dmg being incap, Gaidin.. goes incap? Dies? Haggs? What happened in the books?
  • If Gaidin is in room, via coding he cannot leave the room, even with fireworks. He goes BERSERK so he cannot flee (he should get attack here), and he intercepts ALL attacks (please fix that loophole, it's a loophole, right?), he must stay. When he dies, she's fair game and she does because she's incap (at least if no other LS).
  • Live together, die together. Is that bookish? I'm only on book five and none of those guys or gals have died so IDK. Make it bookish.
Jestin they could have read my post and skipped the back and forth and I don't even have a DL... Just a piss-poor-PKing Green with -30 SPS and Gaidin who don't play! Cheers.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by isabel » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:20 am

Jestin wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:12 am
But the AS draining bullshit by far takes the trophy for being the most overpowered and frankly broken thing ever. Desperately needs a fix. Nuts that it's still in the game years after Eileen and Aenor implemented it so that their AS/warder pair became unkillable.
Lol yea like surviving because of drain = coded reward for pking badly
inky drain = coded punishment for winning a close fight

Is probably why we dont' see bonded pairs pking much either. That pair realy needs to be newer/1 not-good player there to make it viable.

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:56 pm

isabel wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:20 am
Jestin wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:12 am
But the AS draining bullshit by far takes the trophy for being the most overpowered and frankly broken thing ever. Desperately needs a fix. Nuts that it's still in the game years after Eileen and Aenor implemented it so that their AS/warder pair became unkillable.
Lol yea like surviving because of drain = coded reward for pking badly
inky drain = coded punishment for winning a close fight

Is probably why we dont' see bonded pairs pking much either. That pair realy needs to be newer/1 not-good player there to make it viable.
Lol don't get me started on inky's. Whose idea was that? I'm going to send them flowers because they probably had a rough year in the game then.

Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Elysia » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:01 pm

I don't want to crap all over the imms who came before, considering there are 20+ years between then and now, but the unimplemented trolloc and other clans' bonuses are pretty out of whack. They may not have been <2001, since it would've been harder to rank and fewer would've had those bonuses, but if those had been put in and lasted until now, OOF. Or as someone said this week: some old imms had a major hardon for stabbers and we can find the historic evidence in those old bonuses.

Which, incidentally, is why we can't, or rather we absolutely shouldn't, just flip a switch and turn those on.

Razhak
Posts: 1396
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:43 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Razhak » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:32 pm

Flip the switch! Flip the switch! Push the button! Take the blue pill!

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Change to Master Damage

Post by Thore » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:11 pm

Elysia dropping the wisdom bomb. Thank you.

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