Change to Master Damage

[Thore]

I'm super glad that master mobs and master damage were downed. There's too much handholding for oldbies. It's such an ass-backwards system - Oh you've played for 10+ years and have masters and fades and gaidin? Lets make the game even easier for you! Oh you're new? Well in addition to not knowing how to play everyone you're playing against is going to have free bonuses, some of which are super OP and unless you play for 5+ more years you're incredibly unlikely to get them!

Good game design would involve masters & remorts getting new & interesting alternate playstyles that still have a similar power level to new players. Any 'OP' potential could be gated by a high skill-ceiling on that alternate playstyle to enable some sick moves if you play really well.

There have certainly been some higher skill tactics enabled by master & remort abilities, but in general they always have a strict bonus to them so that they just make the game easier for low-skill and high-skill players alike.

I'm not against the principle of having some ultra powerful characters in a wheel of time game - asymmetrical multiplayer game mechanics are super interesting and it certainly makes it extra special to take down a Lykan, but it gets way out of whack when all the wholist in PK are remorts and masters. IMO asymmetrically powerful player characters should be rare enough that they aren't deciding the flow of literally every group PK session.

Who are you because I love you lol. This is exactly it. Interesting stuff, fun bonuses, the legit tactical bonus comes with playing for 20 years! And you've been playing for 20 years and you want more player killing. You get less of it by crushing people with your OP bonuses and equipment. You're hurting yourself. Not you, Ryan, the "elite PKer" who has "put in the time, paid the dues" and "earned his/her/their bonuses!"
just like "every newbie should have to do, it's a hard game after all!" That's BS. Make it EASIER on the newbs, train them in PK, make it FUN for them by actually dying to them on purpose sometime! How cool is it to kill your arch nemesis, the one everyone has been speaking about since you started! Nhan and I actually killed Smasher, largely on accident by running into him crit, west of WB during the first week or two of playing. It was a lasting memory. Also lasting memory was dying over and over and over and over to him lol. We loved it, I'm still here, Nhan needs to make time to play again! Imms are doing great!

[Atienne]

Fought a 1v1 against a clanned trolloc today. I felt like the damage was fine. I am rank eight, though. It's certainly more consistent. I do miss having extra damage on charge, but that's the breaks.

My only concern is for remorts, though. Despite all the complaining about them, mostly from people who don't have one, I still think they could get thrown a bone. Even if it's just something small. Going through all that effort and losing the extra damage stinks. Maybe if remorts would just get +dmg equal to their rank. In before "YOU WANT TO GIVE RAZHAK +8 DMG?!" Cap it at +5 dmg. Sorry Razhak, you're too OP! Reasoning for this being OK? You gotta get 1,500 QPs and 750 altqps to remort. Remorts get lowered scalp rewards. Someone who is a Rank 5 remort had to do that plus get another 1,000 QPs at reduced rates. The difference between non-remort Rank 8 QPs and Rank 5 remort QPs is about 14 heads. Not even counting the alt qps aspect of it. It's a lot of time and work.

Other idea: they could get group fade where the number of PC trollocs they can take with them is tied to rank. Rank minus one with a minimum of one would be the formula. Rank 1 and 2 could take one PC with them. Rank 3 could take 2, and so on. Lightside has gate, and with arguably less effort than fading. It compliments the idea of the class being a group leader, and encourages them to lead more PCs around.

Or maybe attack with swords at say, rank four, and get rid of master damage entirely for fades? Figure out some way that practicing a ton of attack skill will not make it go off more often. Just set it at a flat chance to get a second combat round. Maybe 5% while wimpy, 10% while normal, 15% while brave, 20% while berserk. That way it isn't too OP when you're going for max defense. It would be a nice compliment against multibash when everyone compares fades to warders.

Don't be drama queens. Give it some time before you throw in your towels etc.
...
Chill out people the sky's not falling

Sage words. Listen to this one, friends.

"Lightside has gate, and with arguably less effort than fading. It compliments the idea of the class being a group leader, and encourages them to lead more PCs around."

Having spoken to a fade recently in great detail about the skill, I'd say fade is much easier than gate, thought a bit, just a bit, less restrictive of WHERE you can fade. Having two FCs who have each at times used gate, I have the gate perspective, too. Fade is currently, IMO, pretty overpowered comparably. I'm all for group fade, but I think the skill needs some balancing first.

Of course skill to skill fade is easier on practice requirements. Fading a full group costs nearly 75 dp. I don't know about upping cost to "balance" it. Don't forget fades typically have lower wil than most channelers. I don't know how many sp gate costs.

Again, I admit I don't know the real details of gate. I will admit I never really used it. I've gone through other people's gates. I tried to play with it once on an MC. All that aside, I am strictly talking about what you have to do to get to the point where you can actually practice gate. To become Aes Sedai you have to acquire at least 150 QP within a certain framework and pass a vote. That takes a good amount of time and effort. It all depends on the player. I am not sure how fast someone has become Aes Sedai, but I know there are Accepted who are like I was with my trolloc (explained in the subsequent paragraph) and there are also probably people who managed to pull it off in six months. Again, it all depends on the player.

To remort you have do a few things: First, you must get 1,000 QP and do a master quest. Then you can work on some of your alt QP. You have to get another 500 QP before you can finish the rest of your 750 alt QP. That takes a lot of effort and time. Some of it also hinges on DS activity from other players, whether we are talking about the alt qps from clanning and ranking, or hitting the various alt QP smobs. It cannot be done faster than six months, since you have to be a master in your clan for six months. I think a recent DS got master within 3 months of clanning, so he may be able to do it in 9 months total. I created my trolloc in 2003 and never had that narrow focus. I finally faded him in early 2019.

Both routes are difficult, but the contents of their routes are different. I see it as lots of PK/smobbing/clan activity to fade versus lots of RP/clan activity/PK dependent on where you wish to finally end up.

I think the whole thing is funny because how often do we even have a full group of PKers on DS? Or for that matter, LS? And with the clan rank minus 1 floored at 1 PC proposition, this actually keeps most fades only fading 1-2 PC. Based on activity as I know it, there's only four fades that will be able to fade more than two PCs. Three of them would be able to fade 4 PCs, and the other will be able to fade a full group. I don't think doing it this way would be game breaking and destroy everything. Try it for a month then revert it if it causes insanity.

[Rhahr]

Was likely removed for a reason, don't think revisiting old "flawed" bonuses is the way forward, would be nice with some reworking of current "end game", always liked Raz's suggestions at least in so far as spreading bonuses out to cater to whatever playstyle you prefer, so we don't end up with fades who are supposed to lead, but can barely do that since they came from ko'bal and they like the sneaky stabby stabby playstyle or ghars who actually just want to play as a trolloc, but fading is just the natural thing to do. That being said, it is probably a huge task to start thinking about a whole revamping, and then having to rebalance it all afterwards.
But I don't see group fading coming back being a positive. The argument of "there's only a few who can do it" is what got us here in the first place, where many of the old players who stuck around all have remorts, some of us both DL and a fade and whatever other bonused characters, just by the fact that we've been playing for a long time.

[Ominas]

Like FCs! They destroy pk. I don’t disagree with you at all. I like the master damage being downed. I like how close it is across the board now. I hate how mastering a character then remorting them loses the master bonus no matter how small it is.

Try not to think of remorts as a step upwards but more of a "reset progression but now on a far better character". You go from being a master troll to a completely new remort. Your rank is reset at 1 but the character is better overall. You can work your now rank 1 character back up to rank 4 with a little effort and suddenly you are only literally 1 damage less than master. And you're a freeking dreadlord so lmfao if that 1 damage matters at all.

Also yeah thats why I rarely play my FC - it takes up too much space in pk. Is very fun and very strong but unless we're outnumbered or against dreadlords it just kills pk.

I get what you’re saying and it’s a very small thing, but a character should never move backwards as reward for time and work put in. This isn’t call of duty where you prestige and basically start over. Also, a dreadlord should be on par with a master sedai damage wise. I mean a dreadlord is already basically a glorified accepted without rules and a few more spells.

Just so I understand clearly. You’re saying dreadlords are weak?

[Atienne]

Was likely removed for a reason, don't think revisiting old "flawed" bonuses is the way forward, would be nice with some reworking of current "end game", always liked Raz's suggestions at least in so far as spreading bonuses out to cater to whatever playstyle you prefer, so we don't end up with fades who are supposed to lead, but can barely do that since they came from ko'bal and they like the sneaky stabby stabby playstyle or ghars who actually just want to play as a trolloc, but fading is just the natural thing to do. That being said, it is probably a huge task to start thinking about a whole revamping, and then having to rebalance it all afterwards.
But I don't see group fading coming back being a positive. The argument of "there's only a few who can do it" is what got us here in the first place, where many of the old players who stuck around all have remorts, some of us both DL and a fade and whatever other bonused characters, just by the fact that we've been playing for a long time.

I would like to know the reason for removal. I don't think saying "it was likely removed for a reason" is a valid response. It's a cop out. Isn't it possible that the reason for removal does not exist anymore? I assume it had something to do with dwindling player numbers, back when there were like 10 people in all playing. Or maybe it was the old WoTMUD trope of something being complained about enough so that it was removed, changed, or otherwise nerfed. I would like to know how gate avoided removal when it's end result is the same thing: moving large numbers of PCs around the map quickly and without tracks.

I will agree with you about Razhak's ideas. I like his ideas. It would give an option to people who don't want to be leaders, and instead would prefer an additional bonus that complements their playstyle. Not everyone is meant to be a leader, and funneling them towards becoming a fade "because that's what you do" as the typical progression towards end game for a character is not the best idea. It's how things ended up the way they are now.

[Rhahr]

Wasn't around when groupfade was a thing, but I imagine the random full group fading in on smobbers then fading out was the main reason and having a side where a large number can "gate" doesn't seem too productive, could be it is more balanced now that no quit makes it harder, but since failing fades doesn't cost DPs it doesn't really answer it. In any case DLs can prac gate, so its not like the side can't have it, fades don't have to be copies of channelers, we have Dreadies for that. I know Mikhan and maybe Xafelar were dicking around with gate at some point, personally I've always stayed away from it.

[Skurk]

Like FCs! They destroy pk. I don’t disagree with you at all. I like the master damage being downed. I like how close it is across the board now. I hate how mastering a character then remorting them loses the master bonus no matter how small it is.

Try not to think of remorts as a step upwards but more of a "reset progression but now on a far better character". You go from being a master troll to a completely new remort. Your rank is reset at 1 but the character is better overall. You can work your now rank 1 character back up to rank 4 with a little effort and suddenly you are only literally 1 damage less than master. And you're a freeking dreadlord so lmfao if that 1 damage matters at all.

Also yeah thats why I rarely play my FC - it takes up too much space in pk. Is very fun and very strong but unless we're outnumbered or against dreadlords it just kills pk.

I get what you’re saying and it’s a very small thing, but a character should never move backwards as reward for time and work put in. This isn’t call of duty where you prestige and basically start over. Also, a dreadlord should be on par with a master sedai damage wise. I mean a dreadlord is already basically a glorified accepted without rules and a few more spells.

I agree, I just dont think going from a (for example) 19 11 9 18 19 troll with 4 bonus damage per hit - to an uber statted channeler with bonus sp and mc pracs that can issue the highest db shirt in the game among other bonuses is really a step back. It's not getting r8 on a troll where you get 1 more damage and are the same thing, it's becoming something completely new and far far far stronger, but starting at the bottom of that ladder.

[Atienne]

Wasn't around when groupfade was a thing, but I imagine the random full group fading in on smobbers then fading out was the main reason and having a side where a large number can "gate" doesn't seem too productive, could be it is more balanced now that no quit makes it harder, but since failing fades doesn't cost DPs it doesn't really answer it. In any case DLs can prac gate, so its not like the side can't have it, fades don't have to be copies of channelers, we have Dreadies for that. I know Mikhan and maybe Xafelar were dicking around with gate at some point, personally I've always stayed away from it.

Ah yes the non-existent (except for Mikhan sometimes!) dreadlord. I wonder why dreadlords don't play their characters. I know Jestin pops on sometimes, too. I think that would be a good argument if dreadlords played regularly. Plenty of Aes Sedai play.

As for failing fade costing dp...I am not sure how that will really balance it. As I already pointed out, if you succeed both fades, you could fade a full group MAYBE twice before running out of dp. It is much more likely you will have to wait for a tick or two to fade a full group twice. I know that would be the case on my fade. Maybe tie in the skill percentage and the number of PCs following into how often it will fail? More PC followers, higher chance to fail, unless you have closer to 99%?

That also leaves you without any dp. You'll have to sit in the dark for some time if you want to regenerate those dp. What this means, essentially, is that the fade will not be able to do any of his skills. No sneaking on horse, no compel, no darken, no fading the group out of danger, and no fear. None of these skills will be helpful until the fade has enough dp again. Probably irrelevant for a quick smash and dash on a smob. Gate, you typically have a group with multiple channelers, and that is why it is so lethal. I will admit, from my perspective and experience, gate is typically used more for smobbing than PK.

In the end it doesn't really matter. With the number of fades it is typically easy to get 2-3 fades to each fade a person down somewhere and smash whoever. It's often easy enough for someone to grab a PC and a mob and ruin someone's day. So yeah, it doesn't matter.

I still want to know why all the dreadlords quit, though.

[Hope]

Because a dreadlord is just a channeler with rat reports. Fades get all kinds of cool things, dreadlords can drink water and blood. Quite frankly it gets boring.

[Bryan]

Wasn't around when groupfade was a thing, but I imagine the random full group fading in on smobbers then fading out was the main reason and having a side where a large number can "gate" doesn't seem too productive, could be it is more balanced now that no quit makes it harder, but since failing fades doesn't cost DPs it doesn't really answer it. In any case DLs can prac gate, so its not like the side can't have it, fades don't have to be copies of channelers, we have Dreadies for that. I know Mikhan and maybe Xafelar were dicking around with gate at some point, personally I've always stayed away from it.

Ah yes the non-existent (except for Mikhan sometimes!) dreadlord. I wonder why dreadlords don't play their characters. I know Jestin pops on sometimes, too. I think that would be a good argument if dreadlords played regularly. Plenty of Aes Sedai play.

As for failing fade costing dp...I am not sure how that will really balance it. As I already pointed out, if you succeed both fades, you could fade a full group MAYBE twice before running out of dp. It is much more likely you will have to wait for a tick or two to fade a full group twice. I know that would be the case on my fade. Maybe tie in the skill percentage and the number of PCs following into how often it will fail? More PC followers, higher chance to fail, unless you have closer to 99%?

That also leaves you without any dp. You'll have to sit in the dark for some time if you want to regenerate those dp. What this means, essentially, is that the fade will not be able to do any of his skills. No sneaking on horse, no compel, no darken, no fading the group out of danger, and no fear. None of these skills will be helpful until the fade has enough dp again. Probably irrelevant for a quick smash and dash on a smob. Gate, you typically have a group with multiple channelers, and that is why it is so lethal. I will admit, from my perspective and experience, gate is typically used more for smobbing than PK.

In the end it doesn't really matter. With the number of fades it is typically easy to get 2-3 fades to each fade a person down somewhere and smash whoever. It's often easy enough for someone to grab a PC and a mob and ruin someone's day. So yeah, it doesn't matter.

I still want to know why all the dreadlords quit, though.

I've just been playing other characters than Bryan, who was my main for many years, because 1.) there are fewer LS PKers around when I am right now, so I tend to play LS over DS, and 2.) on DS I was working on (finally) fading Riurk.

But, I think there are two reasons you don't see more dreadlords playing actively, broadly speaking:

1.) A lot of trollocs who went dreadlord via the trolloc->dreadlord route were not really serious channie players as their main, which is why they don't stick around. The exceptions are really just Jestin and Mangler, and even Mangler started as a fade. A channeler is just a very different class and playstyle. Removing the trolloc->dreadlord remort path was a good change both because that path made Darkfriends pointless and also because you tended to end up with dreadlords who don't actually play channelers or really enjoy it more than other classes. So it ends up as a trophy character, and that is even explicitly the goal in some cases.

2.) If you have both a fade and a dreadlord (a lot of the newer dreadlords fall into this category), the fade is the easier character to lead on and is also more mobile w/fade and compel. So unless there are a bunch of channelers rampaging through the Blight, the fade is usually easier to run around on.