Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Yonio
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:59 am

Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Yonio » Sun May 23, 2021 11:39 am

What can we do, from a game balance perspective, to encourage a better balance of players?
Helgi chats 'think it is a outcry of players for a need of more nonpk based play ....to be honest... rp is an important key part of a fantasy game that has been down played a lot'
My initial thought was that perhaps KMG is too easy to rank in? Or really, the question I had was "Why does KMG have so many active players? What about it drives players to clan there?"
Kazor chats 'yeah I think kmg is probably like harder to get qp than pk clans'
Agree with Helgi:
Helgi chats 'also think pk is way over prioritized if i hear one more person try to tell me how fades do not have more advantages then any other play class i will scream...i think if they are going to be way over powered compared to boom models then they should have THE strictest rp in the whole game'
Hope you learn PK soon my friend, it is awesome! Someone teach him!
Peadair chats 'too add to the discussion, I enjoy rp more than pk, but mostly just because I'm newer'
A snapshot from this morning. I encourage others to do this throughout their days and post here and try to analyze why it's distributed like it is, and what we might do to fix it (from a game design perspective). No use complaining or whining, just come up with some ideas.
2021-05-23 8:30AM PST
4 PK/RPers? - 14.8%
Kazor the Sergeant [Ever Victorious Army]
Kat 'Katholomew' Avery, Legion Unifier WANTED
Yonio Najirah, Scion of Conquest & Morat
4 Lord Draz the Gaidin Master [Gaidin Blademaster] WANTED

4 KMG RPing/Smobbing/AFKing - 14.8%
Helgi al'brawdrifynn, the Sea Merchant... [Kandori Merchants' Guild] WANTED
Lamark Dagar [Kandori Merchants' Guild]
Master Kordin al'Dendarii [Illuminator Chapter Master] (Sworn)
Mistress Viva Mae, Marath'damane [Kandori Merchants' Guild] WANTED

9 STATTERS - 33.33%
Eridin of Shienar
Tazok of Two Rivers
Nykyrian of Murandy
Thaco of Two Rivers
Ayanami of Arafel
Aegis of the Borderlands
Sevatar of Seandar
Peadair of Andor
Ghavin of Seandar (Idle)
Some ideas I'd propose:
  • "Hide" or give a separate wholist to the statters - or classify levels 1-3 as such so wholist is more accurate. Statters are NOT the problem, people just see them on wholist and THINK they are a problem.
  • Make smobs less of DTs. Make it harder for the Razhaks to run in and trap people who are already low and/or AFK or under-eqd or who don't want to PK (but should be forced to, if attacked!) in doors. Give chase.
Last edited by Yonio on Sun May 23, 2021 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yonio
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:59 am

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Yonio » Sun May 23, 2021 11:42 am

Whoops quoted instead of edited - delete please.

Razhak
Posts: 1396
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:43 am

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Razhak » Mon May 24, 2021 6:11 am

Make smobs less of DTs. Make it harder for the Razhaks to run in and trap people who are already low and/or AFK or under-eqd or who don't want to PK (but should be forced to, if attacked!) in doors. Give chase.
Two posts in and already my name is being dropped as a problem to smobbers..

Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Elysia » Mon May 24, 2021 8:56 am

One thing a whole bunch of KMG have told me is that that clan allows/allowed them to still play. If they are dealing with young children and afk a lot, they can afk when they need to and still get some gold or smob when they have a few minutes. Also people who play exclusively on phones, atrocious links and/or other less than ideal circumstances for pk.

A happy accident, but I think it preserves players that would otherwise barely be able to play because of the time commitment of a smobbing trip/ pk. I mean, it's not surprising, given the age of the playerbase that people can't dedicate hours anymore.

Atienne
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:25 am

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Atienne » Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm

I like the idea of figuring out a way to move statters / lowbies off the player numbers thing in the discord / on mudlet. Or, we could just get rid of the numbers thing. I know I haven't been playing DS because of it. The times I play I look at it and see 1 DS or 0 DS and I say forget that and log on my LS.

I don't think we need to make smobs easier or less deadly to pkers dropping in. Something tells me while that happens, it doesn't happen all the time. Maybe people should teach others to check for rats and ravens and how best to leave or not leave tracks? That is a skill set that people need to learn.

In my opinion, KMG is active because there are little barriers to entry. You don't have to wait on another clan to respond to you. You don't have to wait to catch a council to clan you. You just do the quest and you can join.

What Elysia said is interesting too - something I never thought about.

Sure, some people can speed through KMG, but you probably have to be pretty dedicated to farming gold, buying tokens to make rares, and smobbing gear to get those quest points. And of course someone else has to buy those items when you might not be first in line to sell your items in the Market Hall.

You don't have to PK to get your quest points. People are always looking for gear and have gold. If anything, it's just a gather stuff and wait type of game.

What does this tell me? We need to figure out a way that people can advance within a reasonable amount of time without depending on PK scalps. Something I am thinking of now is more quests. I know there are gambler quests, clan heads or clan mobs often give quests too. There are also council quests. I actually enjoy writing council quests, and just finished up writing some for my clan, to be posted on June 1st.

What if we were given more leeway and allowed to award more than just 30 quest points for council quests? Or what if we were allowed to rewrite the quests every three months instead of six months? The latter would allow clan members to nearly reach rank five within a year, if you include clan mob quests and or a PK scalp here or there. Is that enough, though? What is a reasonable amount of time to get 1,000 quest points if you aren't PKing all the time?

I know when I was ranking up to 7 and 8 there were days where I could easily fight in group PK and go home with 3-4 scalps over the course of 8 hours of play any day of the week. I don't see that happening anymore, unless there is a lot of weekend activity (I haven't been able to play on the weekend much lately and most of my characters are not chasing PK quest points.) I know of at least one DS trolloc who mastered in the last few months that joined a clan in January of 2021 so I know it is possible with dedication. That means you gotta get 3 heads at 7 quest points each every day for about two months (it's actually less - closer to 48 or so days I think).

I don't think anyone thinks someone should master within 3 or 4 months unless they are killing everything that moves. What about a year? Two years? I don't think it should take more than 1 or 2 years to do non-PK type stuff to get quest points to get to master, if you're able to find a reasonable amount of time to play every week. For me, 8-16 hours is pretty reasonable. For someone else it might not be.

We also need to figure out a way to reduce barriers to entry. One thing Kerryk proposed that I originally did not like, but am now open to, is the idea of automated clanning for justice clans. I see what the Seanchan army has and wonder if something like that on LS would help get some new players into some of the less active justice clans.

Kordin
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:17 pm

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Kordin » Mon May 24, 2021 3:41 pm

Atienne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm
I like the idea of figuring out a way to move statters / lowbies off the player numbers thing in the discord / on mudlet. Or, we could just get rid of the numbers thing. I know I haven't been playing DS because of it. The times I play I look at it and see 1 DS or 0 DS and I say forget that and log on my LS.
Problem with that is that there are a lot of people who play because they can see those numbers. IMHO better to look at why wouldn't more play that side if there are 0 or 1 on, than removing numbers from that playgrounds website. Look at what other side(s) has to offer, and consider implementing it to the "dead" side.
Atienne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm
What does this tell me? We need to figure out a way that people can advance within a reasonable amount of time without depending on PK scalps. Something I am thinking of now is more quests. I know there are gambler quests, clan heads or clan mobs often give quests too.
Yes. And as many as we have - liaison quests, clanmob quests, Joncask etc...it's still a very low number, imho.
Atienne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm
There are also council quests.


Which Council cannot do, and in barely alive clans, often the only active members are Council, and then what?
Atienne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm
What if we were given more leeway and allowed to award more than just 30 quest points for council quests?
As far as I know, 30 is not a hard limit. You can talk to your clan Watcher, or Staff if your Watcher is inactive/retired, and present ideas for more than 30 qps worth of c-quests.
Atienne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm
What is a reasonable amount of time to get 1,000 quest points if you aren't PKing all the time?
Whatever amount of time you invest in it. If there are sources of QPs, and someone is dedicated enough, they should have the opportunity to get 1k QPs just as any PKer going at it for 2-3 months, or however long it takes...

As you said in the example of KMG - "Sure, some people can speed through KMG, but you probably have to be pretty dedicated to farming gold, buying tokens to make rares, and smobbing gear to get those quest points."
Atienne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm
I don't think anyone thinks someone should master within 3 or 4 months unless they are killing everything that moves. What about a year? Two years? I don't think it should take more than 1 or 2 years to do non-PK type stuff to get quest points to get to master, if you're able to find a reasonable amount of time to play every week. For me, 8-16 hours is pretty reasonable. For someone else it might not be.
Why not? If we're talking about adding non-PK ways to get QPs for everyone, why not let someone master within 3-4 months if they play that much and grind something not directly related to PK?

We used to get QPs for smob scalps, then heralds but those got nerfed to a point where risk vs reward is very questionable even for non masters (IMHO)...then dailies got introduced, but not evenly across the board...don't know if all LS clans have a daily, SS can get up to 3 qps, DS...nothing?

It's like one step forward, two steps back, one attempted step forward ending with a trip and stumble forward....

If writing quests and testing them is too much work, return smob scalp awards to gateguard mobs. If not a big issue due to mobol limitations or whatever, make it repeatable like once every 2 months, instead of once per smob per char. Might revive smob trains, PK will happen on its own, people have a non PK source of QPs, without being forced to RP if they don't want to/think it's dumb.
Atienne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 2:41 pm
We also need to figure out a way to reduce barriers to entry. One thing Kerryk proposed that I originally did not like, but am now open to, is the idea of automated clanning for justice clans. I see what the Seanchan army has and wonder if something like that on LS would help get some new players into some of the less active justice clans.
One way that can backfire is if oldies then decided to revive their alts, revive the war system, and farm the new players. One of the last Andor vs BT wars comes to mind where a number of newbs and IIRC 1 or 2 returning players in QG got basically farmed almost daily, and some ended up quitting....

EVA works because you can transfer to other SS clans, with some exceptions, so new players need a newb clan where they can learn the game and all the tricks. Not get fast tracked into a justice clan to then end up clueless in a war. Which is highly likely to happen...

Atienne
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:25 am

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Atienne » Mon May 24, 2021 4:39 pm

I still think we should have more non-PK ways to get quest points.

I don't ever recall a rule that council was unable to do council quests, so long as everything was above board, logged and turned in correctly, etc. Obviously, a council cannot award himself for doing council quests. Another council would have to do it.

Like so many things, no one ever told me 30 was not a hard limit. Every month I discover something that I thought to be a truth turns out to not be so much of one.

I guess since we see KMG master in 3 or 4 months without PKing regularly, that it would be fine for whoever. My thought was more towards the newer player. I think it would be silly to see someone join this as their first MUD and become Lord Newbie in 3 or 4 months. That's why I said between a year or two. Also, to avoid the rapid influx of masters.

As for the war system, I don't particularly like it, personally.

Remember Andor declared war on Murandy, not the other way around. Not sure what they expected to get out of that one.

My idea of the war system is that Tear/Illian/Mayene should be excluded when fighting each other. Tear/Illian/Mayene were always fighting and hate each other forever. Having everyone wanted and able to turn in each others scalps for QPs automatically is fine how it is. There is no need to bring generals into it. So there should be no formal war system wars for Illian vs Tear, or Mayene vs Tear.

Tar Valon clans would not be allowed to war with others (as is the case).

I don't think secret clans should have generals to defend either. Some of the secret clans could easily do just as well as hired help.

Furthermore, watchers should scrutinize possible wars very closely. Maybe they already do this. But there shouldn't just be lol sneak attack i declare war on u!!! It should have that build up, the tensions, the attempts at diplomacy, and then when all else fails there can be a formal declaration of war: just like Elysia said when the system was released.

"Dead" clans should have some way of defending themselves and not be left to lose due to inactivity as well. Whether this means not being allowed to war against someone who has no one to defend them, or the watcher will make it harder by loading up some mobs to help defend within reason, I don't know. I always hated the idea of someone possibly being able to just waltz in and declare war on someone who hasn't had a member play for weeks. Especially with enforced demands of 20k gold, patrols, jump exits, etc.

verne
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:57 pm

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by verne » Mon May 24, 2021 7:05 pm

strongly agree with yonios idea of making people under level three not visible on the playground numbers (if thats possible)

very strongly agree with kordin's idea of a newbie guild for LS. If it is doable to make one I would be willing and able to help in any way possible. I remember a while back there was some talk about a "hunters of the horn" guild that would help new characters feel like they were "in the books" with quests like retracing Rand's steps from EF to Caemlyn, and heavy on teaching/demonstrating game mechanics. Quests like "kill 3 gray men mobs without getting stabbed", "list five three horse loads and why you think they are important", "kill an smob that does not get rescued by its minions", and "turn-in three food items weighing .5 lbs or less" and similar quests can introduce a topic they have never heard of without feeling like a lecture.

Detritus
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 am

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by Detritus » Mon May 24, 2021 10:16 pm

Kordin wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:41 pm
EVA works because you can transfer to other SS clans, with some exceptions, so new players need a newb clan where they can learn the game and all the tricks. Not get fast tracked into a justice clan to then end up clueless in a war. Which is highly likely to happen...
EVA works because it has automated clanning and repeatable quests you can progress a character without doing much.
KMG works the same principal, you're not reliant on other people to progress in game at all.

It's a positive and a negative. Basically promotes solo stab rather than promoting interactive mud play at all.

I'd love if more clans were as accessible.
There's like brief clanning windows it seems but you're out of luck if you dont play with certain players.
Raken active some now which is nice, would have been nice a few months back when i could play a bunch, but i gave up SS when couldnt do anything on it with limited time or play times not at the same time as active players.

I think the EVA template of 3 qps you can get a day is a "good" and reasonable target that could be slowly implimented in other clans. You could play every day and spend an hour every day and eventually master in a year.
Perhaps you could put this to every clan council to conceptualize something themselves or with their clan, don't need to burn out imms or make new zones or anything to have progressive tasks.

The smob "chains" are awesome things with investment and progression towards a goal, you could add a garanteed progression item (is it possible to do "chunkable" insignia of less chunks?) to the end vault/chests.(current rewards are tiny% chance of something good, and high % chance of worthless wasted your time) Most of these chains are not soloable.

Currently Baerlon/Jehanna are not contestable only swapable(they are qp farms), they're deadend door traps waiting to happen so there's no reason to suicide defend/contest them. Same goes for a lot of cityheads with doors.

In general addressing this point, item and Mobol opening directions(like smob quest chain items) rather than open/close lockable would be awesome with anything designed for conflict/contest.


Lastly I'll say please people consider limited imm resources in sugestions and maybe imms could chip in what is helpful/constructive and what is not. I was a bit aghast seeing Elysia saying she spent 5 hours of slog work when she got back, admin is horrible stuff. I would hope imms would be encouraged to make enduring stuff(quests etc for clans) or do stuff (mob interaction with playerbase) fun and not just the bad side.
I appreciate the thankless work of imms whether you're a Vivienne or a Siro.

gok
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:41 am

Re: Game Balance to Encourage Wholist Balance

Post by gok » Tue May 25, 2021 3:16 am

I am sure this is difficult to code but on world of warcraft they had a system where you would get increased rewards for playing on the side (or even the role) who had less players. Perhaps this can be as simple as figuring out the fair balance between each race and awarding all players who are on the least numerous side above lvl 30 outside of the city 5 tps per hour. If this is difficult to code perhaps imms can hand out goodies/qps/tps to the appropriate side at their discretion.

Another option could be to promote events. for Example if 20 people are in a massive group pk then award them something. If a massive group of people do an rp event award them. The event Kryyg and Jestin setup was great and it resulted in a lot more activity.

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