Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

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Rig
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Location: JESUS

Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Rig » Wed May 05, 2021 8:15 pm

Not so terrible re: waygates

Portal stones are really dumb and they are the real mode of safe exit and fast travel!

Sanguine
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Sanguine » Wed May 05, 2021 9:25 pm

byrg wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:15 pm
Sanguine wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:52 pm
As someone who doesn't ever use waygates and doesn't know how to, my only comment is that if we took the approach of not being able to escape through them, it would create more interesting PK, I think. There are plenty of ways to escape back up north or back toward Falme. Leave it to horses or resting moves at troll patties and people's zone knowledge, not some get out of free jail card back to Keep.
I feel like... if you admittedly haven't used them and don't understand how they work, its perhaps a bit unfair to call them a get out of jail free card? Just last week I was chasing someone through them who misspammed and DT'd. I think about a week ago we had a post where someone died from machin emotes... I'd hardly call them risk free or a "get out of jail free card" - as others have stated, it's fairly easy to chase through them, or block the gate, and I've definitely seen people die trying to run away through them - I've died in them several times trying to do exactly that myself.
To call the llama furry, you've done exactly the same thing with FC's, unless you have actually actively played them and know all the ins and outs. I think I know enough about how the ways work to make an opinion, informed or not, I just haven't been asked to learn the exact mechanics yet. Mostly because I haven't needed to, why would I? I don't play a troll that needs to raid. A few questions maybe you can answer.

What percentage of time does someone running through the ways DT?
Is DTing in the ways as you are running home to safety a good or cool mechanic?
Would you rather all players involved have a fun chase where they catch up to someone at Patty's and then lose them, and then catch up to them again and lose them, or would you rather have them get into the ways and perhaps disappear?
What percentage of light side players will actually chase through the ways, and how many times have they caught up to a troll escaping through them before they reach the safety of keep?
How often do you think, as a raiding troll, you would survive 1v3 against three competent chasers who are chasing you through the ways or who are chasing you through the rest of the world?

Sanguine
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Sanguine » Wed May 05, 2021 9:28 pm

As a follow-up, what would be so bad about letting the ways be relatively safe and easy way into an area, but not out of? As for ideas, how about make the mobile on the leaf take 10 seconds? 20 seconds? Be related to how much search you have, or higher search than it currently is so a a raiding troll has to make a small practice sacrifice in order to use them to get in and out of an area? What if light side could spend some amount of time to close the way gate like a certain ogier did in some of the earlier books (see logs on the roads)?

Adael
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Adael » Wed May 05, 2021 11:00 pm

To be fair to Byrg, he has played channelers and was active on an MC for awhile. Whether or not that equates to him having knowledge about them I won't comment on :P

What percentage of time does someone running through the ways DT? Pretty small, <10%. More than people DT running around the world normally though

Is DTing in the ways as you are running home to safety a good or cool mechanic? The presence of DTs makes the ways inherently unsafe. I'd say it hits both marks, it's good to make them dangerous to use and it's cool because it invokes the sense of caution about them present in the books.

Would you rather all players involved have a fun chase where they catch up to someone at Patty's and then lose them, and then catch up to them again and lose them, or would you rather have them get into the ways and perhaps disappear? Yeah, sometimes fun chases just aren't going to happen, due to one side being overwhelmed or similar. You could argue that a troll making it into the ways to run to blight is harder than a human making it into one of their cities to escape

What percentage of light side players will actually chase through the ways, and how many times have they caught up to a troll escaping through them before they reach the safety of keep? About the same number, although probably slightly less, who would _actively_ chase a troll and be on their tail the whole time if they ran north through Rhahime or cut I'd say :P. I'd say it depends more on the health of the troll that's running than anything. Catching them? About the same as catching someone in the blight, if they're ahead and they don't misspam/lag out, they're probably going to make it in before you if they know what they're doing

How often do you think, as a raiding troll, you would survive 1v3 against three competent chasers who are chasing you through the ways or who are chasing you through the rest of the world? Infinitely easier to survive vs 3 chasers out in the world. If 3 people catch you in ways, you're pretty hard off, especially since it's near impossible to get a dline, and the dlines available are all 100% predictable
Sanguine wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:52 pm
Leave it to horses or resting moves at troll patties and people's zone knowledge, not some get out of free jail card back to Keep.
Using the ways does constitute zone knowledge, sooo :)

Edit: Also, while raiding may be one of the primary waygate uses (and even that is restricted to just a few waygates typically), they ways -do- serve other means. They're the quickest way to get from the center of the map (TV gate) to any of the edges (Chico, Tear) for exp/smobbing/rent checking. They're the only way humans/DS can pk on Seandar (and the fact that the waygate is the ONLY way in and out of Seandar for humans/DS means you better win, or you're probably dead). Ditto for Jafar, although humans may have a boat there?
Waygates are extremely easy to block, and I don't think they make escaping their relevant areas particularly any easier than it would be otherwise. Blight waygate can be just as easily used by a stuck human to get to safety too :P

Kordin
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Kordin » Thu May 06, 2021 2:30 am

Adael wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:00 pm
They're the only way humans/DS can pk on Seandar (and the fact that the waygate is the ONLY way in and out of Seandar for humans/DS means you better win, or you're probably dead). Ditto for Jafar, although humans may have a boat there?
Waygates are extremely easy to block, and I don't think they make escaping their relevant areas particularly any easier than it would be otherwise. Blight waygate can be just as easily used by a stuck human to get to safety too :P
You can boat from Chico on LS, south of Kings palace there's a mob who sells tickets (1-way) to Seandar.

Jafar can be sailed to manually.

Detritus
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Detritus » Thu May 06, 2021 4:34 am

I would give an imm free reign to change ways links as much as they want, i dont like them being mapable at all.

It would only take swapping a few links here and there a few times.

You dont need to change or recreate the wheel, just swap the room ID links of a DT and safe link in a few places. (ie. south is safe and west is a DT instead of west being safe path and south a DT)
Vials are super easy to get now and commonly eaten like candy taking away most risk raiding without needing easy escapes.


Portal stones also i think are too reliable with how prevalent discs are, could make them random teleport like channeling at them or make discs 1 use.

Ominas
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Ominas » Thu May 06, 2021 6:35 am

I don’t know. I’d argue most of you are biased. Which is fine. You don’t like the idea of a toy being potentially taken from you. I can understand that. Doesn’t change the fact that it is an eject button.

For everyone talking about being caught in ways while trying to escape, regardless of the side, who is running for ways but those who know the spams? It’s silly. So are portal stones. I’ve chased multiple trollocs through ways and had to stop in every room to make sure they didn’t walk through a dt.

Put a long open timer on it. Make no quit cancel it. Whatever you want. But you’ll never convince me that a dude should be able to be in RK in 10 seconds when he gets to wound down in cara. Which is what ds pk is mostly now.

There’s a reason Imms put a check on river boats. I may have been partly responsible for that. There’s little difference between ways and that. Just saying.

Ps. I like Raz’s idea about random shifting paths etc

Adael
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Adael » Thu May 06, 2021 9:40 am

Kordin wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 2:30 am
You can boat from Chico on LS, south of Kings palace there's a mob who sells tickets (1-way) to Seandar.

Jafar can be sailed to manually.
Aha, didn’t know humans had boats that go there. Thanks!
That made me realize trolls can technically double boat, from LS or EF to IoMM and then from IoMM to Seandar, so I stand corrected.
Ominas wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 6:35 am
I’ve chased multiple trollocs through ways and had to stop in every room to make sure they didn’t walk through a dt.
This reads like someone who doesn’t know a zone so well chasing someone who knows it better, and not catching them :P
Ways are no more of an easy eject from Cara than cut or Rhahime. If a troll gets to the choke/waygate first, they can zoom and be gone. Waygates are at least easier to block than other chokes.

Sanguine
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Sanguine » Thu May 06, 2021 9:48 am

Wow, I love this discussion! I see where Det is coming from, but what if instead we made the ways EASIER to navigate, so that anyone with a map could do it very easily, and it gave people the courage to chase into the ways. And then you create a different mechanic, like life loss on each room similar to inky cloaks, or random chance to be engaged by Machine Shin (giving chasers a chance to catch up), and maybe rethink the DTs, and then you have a system that everyone can use, that promotes PK, and create some fun fights and stories! I've been playing for 20 years and I haven't taken the time to learn the ways. If they were mapped, and the mechanics fairly known, I would not hesitate to use them.

Then consider moving some of the way gates, keeping them in their book-based locations, but putting them on the map where it makes the most sense to create good PK. Put them near cities so people tracking can see people coming out of them easily, put them in places that are somewhat easy to block, or put them far enough away from cities, that people have a chance to catch a troll between the blight way gate and keep, etc.

Ominas
Posts: 459
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Re: Discussion - Waygates and Noquit

Post by Ominas » Thu May 06, 2021 9:57 am

Adael wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 9:40 am
Kordin wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 2:30 am
You can boat from Chico on LS, south of Kings palace there's a mob who sells tickets (1-way) to Seandar.

Jafar can be sailed to manually.
Aha, didn’t know humans had boats that go there. Thanks!
That made me realize trolls can technically double boat, from LS or EF to IoMM and then from IoMM to Seandar, so I stand corrected.
Ominas wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 6:35 am
I’ve chased multiple trollocs through ways and had to stop in every room to make sure they didn’t walk through a dt.
This reads like someone who doesn’t know a zone so well chasing someone who knows it better, and not catching them :P
Ways are no more of an easy eject from Cara than cut or Rhahime. If a troll gets to the choke/waygate first, they can zoom and be gone. Waygates are at least easier to block than other chokes.
Holy firetruck Adael, your observation skills, are next level. What amazing thing are you going to catch in your next reply?

The point, is that you’re chasing tracks in these situations, generally. Unless you’ve learned the spams that day and have a vague idea of where they’ll go. And even then, people mess up. So naturally unless you’re certain you’re going to check exits at times in a potentially unfamiliar spot.

And ways aren’t an easier eject? I take back my comment on your amazing observation skills. Dum dum. They lead straight to top blight. Of course they are an easier and safer eject.

What you are saying about them making it past a choke isn’t wrong. If they do they can zoom. But whoever on whatever side still has a chance to catch them. They still have a chance of mismanaging their moves or horse moves. Whatever. With ways those things are eliminated. It’s 15 keystrokes and you are another 15 or 20 from a city or whatever. No skill. No risk. No problem.

So that argument is nonsense as well.
Last edited by Ominas on Thu May 06, 2021 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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