Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

[Detritus]

I actually think the current mitigation of warriors vs mobs could easily be applied to pvp as well, it's nothing like the rediculous iteration of mitigation we had for several months.

As a side line I'll point out for the people braying about gaidin not losing zerk attack that we had attack long before there was any warrior zerk attack and that it's tied to bonded sedai being online as well. It's hardly like every second fade log where you see them turning it on at will after bashing someone.

It wouldn't be very missed, I'm 50/50 on bothering to prac attack at all(abs just has lots of extra pracs), I'd be curious if anyone other than draz even uses it.

I see more of a problem with the weapon changes that we warriors were told to wait for making abs weapons(majority of warriors) significantly worse than combo.
I would not intentionally play abs outside of my gaidin but it actually has very little to do with being a warrior.(and combo gaidin are even better).

[Weir]

Davor is absolutely right that EQ availability is a huge aspect of this. Top tier dodge/combo used to be significantly less attainable, so someone in ABS didn't have to stack up against someone with such ridiculous defense compared to now. You can easily see multiple full sets going back and forth in a single PK session, and the reality is with how much weapons were downed ABS just suffers much more than the other setups.

[isabel]

There is also the impact on overall pk. With the decline of absers, PK has become so much more boring and slow with the flood of rogues, channies and defensive players.

[Roryn]

I will agree with the common consensus that abs is in a bad spot compared to other setups.

Mostly don't think this is a defensive thing so much as needing more offense, as others have said.

[Zarth]

Even at the heyday of abs/eaxe, it was never a top tier setup. It was certainly more viable than now, but even 20 years ago the top tier pkers who had the stats and the gear were almost never playing abs. They were playing combo/bt, or combo jaggeds after that.

Second, if you were balancing towards Tarn then abs is perfectly balanced. It sucks and absers die all the time, just like Tarn! (and Zarth! and Flarn!)

[tekela]

Even at the heyday of abs/eaxe, it was never a top tier setup. It was certainly more viable than now, but even 20 years ago the top tier pkers who had the stats and the gear were almost never playing abs. They were playing combo/bt, or combo jaggeds after that.

Such a functional newb ("cOmBo jAgGeDs bAcK iN tHe dAy"). It was a set up that could, played correctly, pretty much take on any set up. And it absolutely was the go-to ABS set up for a long time, to the point where e-axes were basically currency.

[Aureus]

There's some interesting discussion here, but IMO equating abs with warriors is the wrong move. If I up abs weapons, I am also upping hunters and anyone else (rogues, weird abs-channie setups) that use them. So that does not help warriors as a class, and weapon changes are not a panacea for warriors.

Secondly, we did intentionally want to bring dodge up and bashers down a bit.

Thirdly, I'm still keeping an eye on abs. Combo might be a bit too strong, but I'm not 100% on that yet.

Fourth (and final) point is I do agree short blades melee damage is too high. It crowds out fencing blades and can shred abs. I am hesitating from nerfing it though because it also nerfs stab damage. Open to ideas.

[Zarth]

They were combo jaggeds back in the day! Eaxe was certainly the best abs weapon and it was better than the current situation, but I would not call it top tier if the top tier players weren't actually using it on their top tier alts.

As Kryyg mentioned once people had the stats and the gear to go combo they did unless they just liked to play abs. This was certainly the case when you think about the very top end with rares etc but even without them I maintain that there was still a gap between combo and abs. Who were the absers running eaxe and getting onto the lists or even running around dominating? It happened, but rarely. You'd not see Madin or Dagre caught dead in abs even if they didn't have a heron. ABS/Eaxe was relatively balanced in that it was good enough and orders of magnitude easier to gear up. Those statements are both less true now.

[isabel]

I don't think we are equating abs with warrior or weapon changes, it just happens that abs/club was the equivalent of yew/staves on a channie - not the only way to play, but one of the most effective ones that maxed out all that it was good for. The cumulative effect of the changes means that dominant playstyle has taken a hit. As you said, abs/channie is rare, abs/rogue in pk is also rare.

Also true that abs/club/warrior could hold its own against any setup when played correctly, be it dreadlord, max dodge stabber, heron combo, whoever - and that's how it should be shouldn't it? A setup should be able to hold up against another setup if played correctly.

That said, for every time it won there were easily 20 times when it lost because of the variety of options available to other setups. The fact that it COULD win once in a while is what made it worth playing at all.

The game has already slowed down now with the rebalancing of master damage and removal of zerk attack (all good changes imo), but if you're thinking in terms of downing combo and sblades as well aren't you basically shaving from both sides making it even more snail-paced?

I think as Erulak said, you could up the abs on dodge, up the abs weapons back to how they were and give warriors +10 ob (the whole mob mitigation stuff just seems odd in terms of how it affects pk estimates imo - wouldn't care if it was removed).

[Treach]

There's some interesting discussion here, but IMO equating abs with warriors is the wrong move. If I up abs weapons, I am also upping hunters and anyone else (rogues, weird abs-channie setups) that use them. So that does not help warriors as a class, and weapon changes are not a panacea for warriors.

It is 2 separate problems that people keep mentioning together. But it is still 2 problems that people think need to be fixed.

Also IMO in a 1vs1 fight standing in a room, the only factor should be what equipment the other person is wearing (or if they are a channie).

An ABS setup should be an ABS setup. It shouldn't make a difference in a 1vs1 fight if it is a hunter, or a warrior, or a rogue that is wearing it.

I really like the idea that the mud is structured around stats/practices/equipment, rather than intangible bonuses.

I really hate the idea that hunter/warrior/rogue with same stats/practices/equipment might be different in a 1vs1 fight. They should be the exact same in a 1vs1, and the class bonuses are soft skills that bring something to the table but not directly influence a 1vs1, i.e. autotrack, autoscan.

Warrior is an outlier to have bonus stats because the other class bonuses are terrible. We need better ideas for warrior bonus, something as cool as autotrack (or just give warriors autotrack..).

Having numerous band aid fixes, that people even forget what the bonus is, is bad design imo and different to how the other classes work. A warrior player takes a 6 month break, they shouldn't have to use a wiki or ask what the dmg mitigation bonus is... Which they would, as far as I know there is nothing in game to tell you it.

I think it should be the same for fades and gaidin. They should only have unique bonuses rather than something that changes the concept of stats/practices/equipment such as gaidin regen. Issuing fade shirt is okay because it is equipment, practicing fear or darken is okay, because it is practices/abilities, but gaidin regen is bad imo, it is just something that just straight up makes the character better, and isn't tied into the structures of stats, practices, equipment. It changes how those things works and makes stats better.

Also agree with what Tekela said about diversity of abs weapons. It was a nice idea, but as he explained for an offensive class you don't want to have to choose between OB, dmg, or weight. It was a huge step backwards for the ABS playstyle.

Make combo weapons choose between OB, dmg, or weight. And let 2hand abs weapons have it all.