Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

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Aureus
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:13 pm

Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Aureus » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:21 pm

Announce post here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13929

Created this as the discussion topic.

As a reminder:

Feedback
We're open to feedback on these - especially feedback that is well considered and thoughtful.

Feedback that is more helpful:
  • Are we missing anything?
  • Are there unintended consequences or anything else we should consider?
  • What excites you most? What least?
Feedback that is less helpful:
  • Whether or not anything should be changed at all. We know change is not always comfortable and we don't always get it right, but we're aware of that and this post is part of an effort to be more open and communicative about our thinking. We'll continue to listen to feedback and iterate where needed.
  • Whether or not dodge should be improved. We feel strongly that it is too weak today.
  • Whether or not rare dodge eq should add more db. We feel strongly it should not and the range on db needs to shrink.
  • Feedback on warrior changes, or interactions with warrior changes. Vampa's already shared that changes are forthcoming to warriors to reign in some of the mitigation.
We won't be responding to every post in this thread, just because it is not feasible. But we are trying to be communicative, and we will definitely be reading the feedback!

Adael
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Adael » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:43 pm

Question: You say you're aiming for an ~25% bash landing rate on dodge. Obviously there will be some variability around this level depending on dexterity, pracs, and exact eq used by the attacker/defender. How do you envision armor playing into this desired landing rate, given that (in this range of landing rates/db) the 10db boost it provides will decrease someone's chance to get bashed by 15%?
Particularly asking since armor (in my eyes at least) is more prevalent/easier to get on one side (LS) due to the greater number of channies available. Try not to derail too much with the 'troll rogues suck/shouldn't exist' arguments :P

Edit: I guess also, how have you guys thought about/taken into account the static 5% bash rate mounted humans have? Even with 21 str (which only puts you 2-3 OB above a mounted human with 19 str), trolls can't ever make up that difference. If you want to say that troll dodgers should generally get bashed more than human dodgers, that's fine (it is technically the side that's still tagged experienced players :P), but just curious if that's a desired outcome or not. Obviously the 21 str helps with dmg, and many trolls are warriors so they get some extra OB which might help as well, so there's pros and cons, but without digging too deep into those, just curious how you might have considered race differences in how well you want dodge to perform.
Last edited by Adael on Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Adael
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Adael » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:51 pm

Second question: any particular reason you've decided that OB will be getting downed across the board, as opposed to weapon weight? Weight largely has a greater affect on bash landing rates, and only adjusting weight has the added benefit of being a single variable you can control that won't also affect hit landing rates.

Talem
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Talem » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:56 pm

What about the bow?

Its 25 pb and like .5 lbs 1 handed. It's pretty decent.

I suggest upping OB and damage.

Due to its decay factor, it can be classed as high decay, terrible bash, medium damage, medium/high ob.

Adael
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Adael » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:20 pm

The extra db on dodge rares is being shifted into pb instead, at a favorable rate (greater than 1:1)
Any idea just how favorable a rate? The nice thing about db obviously is that it doesn't get split across multiple opponents. For a dodger buffing 3 people (all with the same OB, for simplicity), a loss of 1 db needs an increase of 2 pb to have the same effective defense. Obviously though then, that makes dodgers harder to hit 1v1. So, kind of curious then what overall impact you want dodge rares to have with an increased pb, in 1v1 situations compared to multiple opponent situations. I think someone in a rare dodge kit right now is already hard to hit 1v1, so trading db for pb at your 'favorable rate' just exacerbates that - especially if OB gets downed.

EDIT: and fwiw, if 1 dodger is buffing 2 people (assuming same OB from each for simplicity), the equivalency is 5db : 8pb, for each of the attackers to face the same effective defense.

Aureus
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Aureus » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:47 pm

Adael wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:43 pm
Question: You say you're aiming for an ~25% bash landing rate on dodge. Obviously there will be some variability around this level depending on dexterity, pracs, and exact eq used by the attacker/defender. How do you envision armor playing into this desired landing rate, given that (in this range of landing rates/db) the 10db boost it provides will decrease someone's chance to get bashed by 15%?
Particularly asking since armor (in my eyes at least) is more prevalent/easier to get on one side (LS) due to the greater number of channies available. Try not to derail too much with the 'troll rogues suck/shouldn't exist' arguments :P
Before I respond, I want to caution against anchoring on specific numbers -- it could be very easy to get into theorycrafting territory for changes that are not finalized. I really debated whether to include this number or not.

Second, yes, there's tons of variability! That's part of why we believe in compressing db. Armor is a tough nut to crack and we're looking at scenarios where the dodger is on foot with armor as well, to make sure it is still bashable. Weave changes are not on the table at the moment.
Adael wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:43 pm
Edit: I guess also, how have you guys thought about/taken into account the static 5% bash rate mounted humans have? Even with 21 str (which only puts you 2-3 OB above a mounted human with 19 str), trolls can't ever make up that difference. If you want to say that troll dodgers should generally get bashed more than human dodgers, that's fine (it is technically the side that's still tagged experienced players :P), but just curious if that's a desired outcome or not. Obviously the 21 str helps with dmg, and many trolls are warriors so they get some extra OB which might help as well, so there's pros and cons, but without digging too deep into those, just curious how you might have considered race differences in how well you want dodge to perform.
Yes, we're balancing around the 5% ride bonus. We're generally okay with trollocs being easier to bash, as trolloc rogues have a lot of other advantages (notably never having to ride and not paying a mvs penalty for notice). It's something we'll have keep an eye on.
Adael wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:51 pm
Second question: any particular reason you've decided that OB will be getting downed across the board, as opposed to weapon weight? Weight largely has a greater affect on bash landing rates, and only adjusting weight has the added benefit of being a single variable you can control that won't also affect hit landing rates.
The amount OB is coming down is different weapon class to weapon class, since we're trying to make their identities more distinct. But, three reasons:
  1. We think OB is too high today - lots of unbashed hits on dodgers, and investing in parry doesn't result in much benefit for parried hits while bashed. So hit chance coming down will improve the value of parry.
  2. And by shifting DB into PB for dodge rares, we think a PB-focused rare eq experience is better for balance. You can play around mob support, bring friends, etc. to offset PB. DB is really all or nothing: once someone approaches unbashable levels of DB it starts to feel really pointless for everyone except channelers.
  3. High OB across the board erases many of the distinctions between weapon classes. By lowering OB and offering more distinct identities, different weapon classes shine more against different opponents.

Aureus
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Aureus » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:52 pm

Adael wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:20 pm
The extra db on dodge rares is being shifted into pb instead, at a favorable rate (greater than 1:1)
Any idea just how favorable a rate? The nice thing about db obviously is that it doesn't get split across multiple opponents. For a dodger buffing 3 people (all with the same OB, for simplicity), a loss of 1 db needs an increase of 2 pb to have the same effective defense. Obviously though then, that makes dodgers harder to hit 1v1. So, kind of curious then what overall impact you want dodge rares to have with an increased pb, in 1v1 situations compared to multiple opponent situations. I think someone in a rare dodge kit right now is already hard to hit 1v1, so trading db for pb at your 'favorable rate' just exacerbates that - especially if OB gets downed.

EDIT: and fwiw, if 1 dodger is buffing 2 people (assuming same OB from each for simplicity), the equivalency is 5db : 8pb, for each of the attackers to face the same effective defense.
We're still finalizing the numbers, and I don't really want to share specifics at this point since I think the experience of playing changes is very different to looking at numbers in a spreadsheet. I covered this a bit in my prior post, but in our view PB is easier to balance around than DB since you can use e.g., mob support or a master mob if you are having a hard time with fighting someone who has high parry. DB is really all or nothing. We want rares to feel good to acquire, but not feel required to play.

Taziar
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Location: Seattle

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Taziar » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:14 pm

Aureus wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:21 pm
Stabbing Weapons:
Short Blades: stronger damage
Javelins: stronger ob, weaker pb
Projectiles: largely unchanged
The only projectile that has attack is the throwing knife, and I double checked and cannot stab with it. Only short blades and javelins can backstab.

Aureus wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:21 pm
Javelins: stronger ob, weaker pb
Projectiles: largely unchanged
Throwing is the only combat mechanic that has not been publicly released so the following suggestions are only based on Hress testing published on Archives: http://www.wotmudarchives.org/forum/vie ... f=4&t=2413 and my own experience using them against mobs.


My thoughts on Projectiles:
Spike is 6d3 95 ob weighs .3 (highest OB, weighs least, has highest and most consistent dmg)
Knife is 5d3 77 ob weighs .5 (I'd lower weight to .4 and raise ob to 80)
Axe is 4d4 80 ob weighs .8 (I'd lower ob to 75 and lower weight to .5 and up die to make it 4d5)
Disk is 5d3 70 ob weighs .2 (I'd raise the damage to 5d4 to have a low ob low weight option, otherwise there is zero reason to use)

Reasons:
With Hress testing the dmg of projectiles and javelins get (4)xdy where all other thrown classes get (2)xdy. Throwing damage does a max of 50 dmg, unless crit (+4d4) and then possible max is 66. STR bonus adds up to the max with Master 2d5 bonus added after that. Then ABS reduces dmg, and contrary to popular myth a critical hit does NOT bypass ABS reduction.

Current projectile thrown dmg:
Spike = 24d3 (max possible roll = 72) avg = 48 (min = 24)
Knife = 20d3 (max possible roll = 60) avg = 40 (min = 20)
Axe = 16d4 (max possible roll = 64) avg = 40 (min = 16)
Disk = same as throwing knife above

If changing Axe to 4d5 and 75 ob and .5 you would have the highest weight, lower ob, and higher dmg.
Axe at 4d5 = 16d5 (max possible roll = 80) avg = 48 (min = 16)

If changing Disk to 5d4 and you would have the lowest weight, lowest ob, and highest dmg.
Disk at 5d4 = 20d4 (max possible roll = 80) avg = 50 (min = 20)

My idea of projectile balance:
Spike 6d3 95 ob .3 (unchanged)
Knife 5d3 80 ob .4 (+3 OB -.1 lbs)
Axe 4d5 75 ob .5 (-5 OB -.3 lbs +0d1 dmg)
Disk 5d4 70 ob .2 (+0d1 dmg)

With an 80% ABS mitigation the max 50 dmg throws will only do 10 dmg... and these low OB higher DMG changes will rarely land on anything but ABS. (with the exception being spikes)

My thoughts on Javelins:
With Javelins weighing 10 times that of projectiles and having about 10 times the duration of thrown flight time I would like to see the damage of all javelins raised so that they reach the maximum damage threshold of a throw more often to account for the 10 times weight and flight time compared to projectiles.

Pine is the only Javelin currently that is used for stab or throwing because of its 5d4 damage. The current stats of a long pine javelin actually fit a niche that no other class has for an attack weapon with 30 pb. The lower OB of 75 makes this not terribly broken as it is the only option for non-rare defense and attack currently.

Dark oak javelin is only used as a practice saving weapon since it is 2h, other wise it is inferior in damage in every way.

Switching the damage dice on 3d6 Javelins would be the most effective way to increase their worth as a usable weapons, perhaps making the long, barbed javelin 7d3 would make it interesting.

toshiro
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by toshiro » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:59 am

I'm excited about the changes. Don't have any feedback a the moment, but I have created a very coarse combat simulator so that I could tests different weapon / practice combinations / combat strategies against the most common setups to see what is most effective. But, it's a pain in the ass to use, because I have to pull stats from the browser based calculators.

I'm not sure how you guys test things currently, but if you're interested and willing to provide the equations that those calculators use (e.g., how OB/DB/PB is computed, and how melee hit % works, how sitting reduces DB/PB, and the % chance of hitting specific body parts), then I can provide you an automated Python script to test different equipment setups versus whatever setups you want to balance around.

The simulator would take eq setups and PK strategy (melee only vs bashing), and outputs histograms and statistics of damage output (taking into account missed bashes, parried bashed hits, and parried unbashed hits). It would automatically load eq stats from some excel spreadsheets, so all you would need to do is tinker with the EQ stats in the excel spreadsheets and then rerun the script. But, I don't currently have all the equations, so I only have the manual version coded up.

Edit: As far as the stab/charge changes go, I would prefer landing rates to be adjusted rather than stab damage. It has always been my opinion that stab should be a heavily targeted attack, i.e., aimed at people you have hidden and diagnosed as low, that you know are low after engaging (e.g., when group pk is regrouping), or channies. As opposed to a free kill on someone who isn't paying attention. If they are wounded from pk/smobbing, they should be paying attention, and if the timer completes on them, then I feel like they should it should land.

Plus I hate bricking on wounded, resting smobbers :P

Rig
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Rig » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:16 pm

I'll center around a few points.
Dodge should be more competitive than it is today. We’re aiming for a roughly 25% bash rate vs a full dodge set with a high end non-rare, non-club abs weapon as a non-master. Depending on the weapon, it’s often upwards of 50-60% today.
This is correct. Good idea.
The current range in db in a good or rare set (~135-160) makes it almost impossible to balance around. Good dodge is either a joke or high end dodge is unbashable. We have to balance around the high end, but also feel that dodge should be more accessible than it is today, vs requiring rares to play. So we’re compressing the range of db:
Right idea. Although entirely wrong.
The extra db on dodge rares is being shifted into pb instead, at a favorable rate (greater than 1:1).
Abs weapon damage should, in general, be higher than it is today to account for stronger dodge.
Untrue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Onto addressing some of this. Previously, before we decided to high-end all OB and release bash % and factors, dodge used to be around 138-140 without rares/armor. This was in a top-end kit. Dodge basics/kcuffs/grings/obsidian pendants/cbelt. With rares (Surcoat/Jcuffs) this number was at about 145 without armor. With dragon belt, before it was changed, this was at about 148 db without armor. Very little range compared to what it is now. With uniques, (silver suit/beady dress/ebony shield) it was at around 154 without armor.

These were good numbers, and dodge was at an alright place during that time. Dodge should be hard to bash. That's the whole point of dodge. The biggest thing however, that I disagree with is scaling back DB on rare items and adding parry instead. It does not need more parry. It doesn't need less db. What needs to be done, is a scale back of DB on dodge basics. This brings it back to those numbers beforehand that weren't so skewed. The change to add abs/db to basics was to make it more tenable for people who didn't have access to rare/unique items and to make it viable with the big up across the board to OB and weapon weight. Removing dodge from these rare items and giving it parry instead is backwards and doesn't make sense.

One of the biggest arguments with dodge changes for the reasons above that i've heard are these:
A lot of players don't have access to rares, which makes dodge untenable for them.
Players can't compete without rares in dodge.
These items aren't accessible to many people.

Unpopular opinion:
These are all untrue. The same people who are competitive in dodge are the same players who are competitive in all set ups and classes regardless of stats/eq/whatever. You didn't have to have access to rares to play dodge effectively, there is a lot of proof of that in a multitude of logs. These items actually were accessible to everyone, no matter who you were before we decided to remove the loads from cityheads. Now, they are accessible via crafting for the most part, which is insane. It's still going to be the same people struggling for the same resources that other players don't struggle for.

Big scale back on OB, remove the added dodge to dodge basics and mid-tier items, keep dodge rares DB orientated.

As for an upping of damage. This is not going to work either. I don't know where the disconnect here is. I assume that you've seem the stupid damage output that is still available. Anyone wearing anything less than an ornate shirt/gold greaves and vambs/lissomes/insect in a combo kit takes a stupid amount of damage. Playing any non-abs set up gets trashed by the damage output that is already here. Everything was upped in damage to a variation of 5d8/6d6 or higher. I get it, we want people to die. I want people to die. However, adding even more of a damage buff on top of that is ridiculous. This is basically what your point is on dodge, how it's not playable without certain items. Only this is actually true, because instead of just getting bashed nonstop you're also getting fragged through pieces of equipment that have no business getting fragged bar someone with a heron/unique/high damage rare.

If anything, damage needs to stay where it is to an extent. It isn't hard to kill anyone in any set up right now with this output. I'd focus first on just balancing bash/dodge/slight weapon changes before we move onto a bigger demon like changes to damage. At least until it's well understood that the damage output right now is pretty insane compared to previously. I can see where we want to individualize weapon classes. That's well and fine, but it's not going to be good if we increase damage and suddenly nobody needs to care because you just hit people for 30 hp a hit out of dodge.

Thank you for coming to my unpopular opinion.

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