Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

[Skurk]

I think it should be the same for fades and gaidin. They should only have unique bonuses rather than something that changes the concept of stats/practices/equipment such as gaidin regen. Issuing fade shirt is okay because it is equipment, practicing fear or darken is okay, because it is practices/abilities, but gaidin regen is bad imo, it is just something that just straight up makes the character better, and isn't tied into the structures of stats, practices, equipment. It changes how those things works and makes stats better.

Eh, imo warder regen fits with the books rp and it makes sense they're a bit stronger than average. Fyi fades also get regen bonus, along with the rest of it.

For sure warders and fades are super strong, dont see why it's a problem though.

[Treach]

For sure warders and fades are super strong, dont see why it's a problem though.

It is not a problem it is just my feelings on the game design. If masters have more dmg it is okay, if Trollocs have a OB bonus it is okay. If lancers have more damage then whatever, as I know they are a lancer.

Clarity is important for game design so players can make informed decisions.

So I dislike little bandaid fixes to warriors that are intangible and make them better in a straight up 1vs1.

If I look at my opponent I shouldn't have to guess if they are a hunter or warrior to make decisions around.

Master, or fade, or trolloc, or gaidin, or lancer, yea okay, you can look at them, and can whois them. But the difference between two starter classes shouldn't be huge imo.

That was the way it was previously with zerk atk. I fight a trolloc or a human I have never fought before. I hated wondering if they were a hunter or a warrior in regards to if I needed to watch out for the beat vs beat surprise bash then zerk kill.

[Davor]

For the two issues.

Warriors sucking:

Let warriors lead 1 more person, along with their humanoid bonus, they will in fact be the smob kings and leaders of PvE. They could also theoretically lead in PK at the cost of auto-track.

Abs sucking as a setup

Abs weapons need to be upped across the board. I still find it insane that the only good abs weapon is Justice/Malfeasor. There should be another 5 options that are just a small tier below these two and would be considered "rare." Heron greatsword is trash. Maul is trash. We made razor swords, OCG/darkened steel tridents, wicked knife bladed axes, steel hammer. Abs weapons got? Downed. Lolz.

By the time a player gets to the stage he now has an immortal and has the ability to make sweeping weapons changes, all his mortals are rogues, channelers and 19 19 18 combo hunters :p I believe many immortals don't understand how to balance abs because they don't play it. The only character I will tolerate abs on is Davor - solely because of his insane hp regen, sometimes I end up regenning more hps than the person can even damage me in a 1v1.

[Ragyn]

regular mauls are pretty banger right now tbh, with the upped weight + dmg to what old tainted maul was, they aint too bad. OB could likely need some looking at, I've only used one on a Warder after the changes and I don't remember the exact number, but I imagine on a regular fella OB isn't super hot.

[Razhak]

Fyi fades also get regen bonus, along with the rest of it.

Untrue, fades do not get a regen bonus.

Fades regen less in daylight/light rooms, and regen normal (not better then regular) in dark rooms.

Not a bonus at all.

[Ibzon]

Really enjoying the discussion here about abs and abs weapons. No great insights but I basically agree with all that has been said; as a setup, abs has always been the weakest of all options (coming from someone who primarily plays an abs warrior). I have always thought that the damage received in abs could and should be balanced by the damage dealt. Being abs means every mob hits me, every blocker hits me, every time someone is chasing me they hit me ... so once the tide turns it turns fast (thinking about the quote from Taladega Nights here - "If you ain't first, you're last!").

As others said, dodge and combo used to be superior to abs because abs was easier to get. Nowadays I'm returning full sets with rares in 1v1 pk cause I often just don't need more jcuffs or onyx shields or wickedlys on storage, so the "easier" nature of abs really isn't a perk anymore.

Upping the damage on abs weapons and also, as others said, making sure each 2handed non-parry abs weapon has decent bash, ob and damage, would go a long way.


By the way, to Davor's point above - just spent some time playing with a heron greatsword, and it was flashy but underwhelming. Bash was terrible (my claymore bashes better) and made it difficult to play. Disappointing, as they really are hard to find - I see more heron med and heron longs than heron greatswords.

[Skurk]

Fyi fades also get regen bonus, along with the rest of it.

Untrue, fades do not get a regen bonus.

Fades regen less in daylight/light rooms, and regen normal (not better then regular) in dark rooms.

Not a bonus at all.

Huh, I just assumed they had a bonus from the insane regen I've delt with - some must quaff many of the tinfuls then.

[Monsoon]

nerf parry eq into the ground
lower pb on combo weapons across the board
up ob on all abs weapons

right now the best bashing axe, dg axe, has a lower land rate than a brass hilted and its over 4 lbs heavier.
even if you land a bash with an abs weapon you wont break def unless 3+ on them.
brass hilted has 13 more ob than dg axe.

none of this makes any sense.

[Raiste]

Outside of the special regen cases mentioned above, my impression as a newer player is that ABS serves two purposes. It provides a convenience set for casuals with real lives to use so they can hop on some times to participate in PvP. And, (often in conjunction with super-easy-to-stat warriors) it provides an introductory set for newer players to get a handle on PvP's learning curve since they won't die instantly from a single bash and one or two bad flees. Despite a relative proliferation of top tier EQ, it's worth remembering that ABS doesn't require trinkets to reach its full defensive potential.

There is almost no mechanical reason whatsoever to wear full ABS in lieu of heavy combo. The choice comes back down to convenience. Perhaps you have competing interests/responsibilities and/or didn't abuse rerolls and therefore don't have a character with the stats to permit you to use non-ABS kits. Perhaps you don't have the time to re-eq yourself properly relative to the ease of re-eqing ABS. We aren't going to escape the truism regarding free to play RPG games like this: the people who play more typically accrue material advantages as a result, above and beyond their cultivated expertise.

Without conflating ABS with warriors, I'll add that in view of the massive changes to warriors, I believe it is fair to let people change their class.

It is time to accept that non-bonused warriors are PVE characters---and, for ABS users out there, to accept that playing a character with only 2 out of 3 physical stats at an adequate level implies (and should imply) that you're going to be a second class citizen in melee-based combat that doesn't involve teamwork.

Also I'd be happy to see sblade melee downed slightly and as compensation, we should revert to the old stab damage formula using the new clan damage in lieu of master damage... then either add bonus damage for actual rogues, to contend with the fact that both hunters and warriors are stronger stabbers in PvE, or up land rate across the board to compensate for slightly lower damage.

[tekela]

There's some interesting discussion here, but IMO equating abs with warriors is the wrong move. If I up abs weapons, I am also upping hunters and anyone else (rogues, weird abs-channie setups) that use them. So that does not help warriors as a class, and weapon changes are not a panacea for warriors.

In case it wasn't clear, I could give a firetruck about warriors. They have OB and enhanced damage on humanoids, which I consider pretty much on par to hunter/rogue bonuses as far as passive class bonuses go. Could use a slight boost on the OB bonus maybe, but I don't personally care. ABS as a playing class (be it hunter, warrior, or the last moron trying to be abs channie post-280 hp cap) needs to be better though.

Secondly, we did intentionally want to bring dodge up and bashers down a bit.

The problem with dodge was not that it didn't "dodge" enough, it's that it took too much damage when it didn't dodge. You can go one of two ways with that -- make dodge less touchable and make it even more volatile (0 abs, higher damage weapons) or keep it touchable but mitigate some of the damage you take (some abs, damage equal). I think what we're saying is that untouchable dodgers (even if upped damage makes them more volatile) is less fun than dodgers that are touchable but can still withstand a little more damage. Probably for both dodgers and other set ups.

Fourth (and final) point is I do agree short blades melee damage is too high. It crowds out fencing blades and can shred abs. I am hesitating from nerfing it though because it also nerfs stab damage. Open to ideas.

The thing with melee set ups is that you need to stand there. If you up ABS weapons and make it less comfortable to stand there in sblades (or any other weapon) or there's any risk associated with building up flee lag, the problem takes care of itself. Sblade parry seems unnecessarily high too. I'm pulling 88/188 wimpy/defensive with 73% with a CC which seems pretty obscene.

The balance to upping abs weapons really, really, REALLY requires that we not up the absorption of ABS eq itself too much beyond where it is (probably even down it a little).

Fyi fades also get regen bonus, along with the rest of it.

Untrue, fades do not get a regen bonus.

Fades regen less in daylight/light rooms, and regen normal (not better then regular) in dark rooms.

Not a bonus at all.

Pretty sure I landed on slightly worse in light and a bit better in the dark when I tested right after fading. I'd also consider tinfuls a pretty okay regen bonus.