Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

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Ominas
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:07 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Ominas » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:32 am

Davor wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:40 am
For the two issues.

Warriors sucking:

Let warriors lead 1 more person, along with their humanoid bonus, they will in fact be the smob kings and leaders of PvE. They could also theoretically lead in PK at the cost of auto-track.

Abs sucking as a setup

Abs weapons need to be upped across the board. I still find it insane that the only good abs weapon is Justice/Malfeasor. There should be another 5 options that are just a small tier below these two and would be considered "rare." Heron greatsword is trash. Maul is trash. We made razor swords, OCG/darkened steel tridents, wicked knife bladed axes, steel hammer. Abs weapons got? Downed. Lolz.

By the time a player gets to the stage he now has an immortal and has the ability to make sweeping weapons changes, all his mortals are rogues, channelers and 19 19 18 combo hunters :p I believe many immortals don't understand how to balance abs because they don't play it. The only character I will tolerate abs on is Davor - solely because of his insane hp regen, sometimes I end up regenning more hps than the person can even damage me in a 1v1.
I stopped reading this thread because it’s mostly redundant and regurgitation, but holy hell man. What a great post. Specifically that end bit.

I’ve said for years, we need a group of pkers who are not biased who can assist Imms with these things. Saif comes to mind for instance, as an example. I am not one. Razhak is not one. Just more examples.

The issue I keep seeing is these numbers worshiping fiends who are only looking there and not at larger impact game wise.
Last edited by Ominas on Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Rig
Posts: 2226
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Location: JESUS

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Rig » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:40 am

Abs weapons are doing great in terms of damage right now. The problem when it comes to an ABS set up is that sblade melee right now is atrocious. If you wanted to fix that and keep stab somewhat relevant, you'd give them less damage, more ob. Then go into the stab damage and remove the added damage from master part of the code, and reapply it where it multiplied previously. The problem was that it was being double dipped with addition+multiplication of the calculation, then the removed variant was the multiplication of the damage. Remove the added master damage part of the formula, put back the multiplication aspect.

Clubs Damage:
Mallet 4d10
Maul 6d8
T-Maul 6d9

Axe Damage:
Eaxe 7d6
DG axe 5d9
Bronze Axe 5d8
Taxe 4d10
Pair of Axes 4d12

Lblade Damage:
WSL 6d6
Csword 4d10
Hooked Swords 8d5
Heron Greatsword 9d5

Those are all pretty high damage rolls. Most of those weapons went from a 21 average damage (6d6) to a 22.5 average (4d10) or higher. Before the change to them literally almost every rare/non-rare top end weapon mentioned here was just 6d6. This is a pretty nice buff towards abs weapons. You see people fragging anything other than gold greaves/vambs and an ornate shirt/fade shirt pretty consistently. You're not doing less damage than any other combo/dodge rare currently EXCEPT for short blades. (lol 6d5 triple bladed, what a fuckin wild ride)

Next problem, besides sblades. Parry has creeped so high. You have all of the used to be dodge rares that got db removed and a pretty hefty bonus to parry added. Lots of weapons had their parry increased. Parry trinks being given more parry. I'm pulling at least 170 parry pretty consistently on most non-masters, higher on my masters with postures. That's without rares and maxing out parry trinks. Fix those two things, and abs becomes incredibly strong again.

blytzkrieg
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:45 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by blytzkrieg » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:14 pm

Rig wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:40 am
Next problem, besides sblades. Parry has creeped so high. You have all of the used to be dodge rares that got db removed and a pretty hefty bonus to parry added. Lots of weapons had their parry increased. Parry trinks being given more parry. I'm pulling at least 170 parry pretty consistently on most non-masters, higher on my masters with postures. That's without rares and maxing out parry trinks. Fix those two things, and abs becomes incredibly strong again.
Agreed and what I’ve been saying for a while now

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Thore » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:39 pm

Ominas wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:32 am
Davor wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:40 am
For the two issues.

Warriors sucking:

Let warriors lead 1 more person, along with their humanoid bonus, they will in fact be the smob kings and leaders of PvE. They could also theoretically lead in PK at the cost of auto-track.

Abs sucking as a setup

Abs weapons need to be upped across the board. I still find it insane that the only good abs weapon is Justice/Malfeasor. There should be another 5 options that are just a small tier below these two and would be considered "rare." Heron greatsword is trash. Maul is trash. We made razor swords, OCG/darkened steel tridents, wicked knife bladed axes, steel hammer. Abs weapons got? Downed. Lolz.

By the time a player gets to the stage he now has an immortal and has the ability to make sweeping weapons changes, all his mortals are rogues, channelers and 19 19 18 combo hunters :p I believe many immortals don't understand how to balance abs because they don't play it. The only character I will tolerate abs on is Davor - solely because of his insane hp regen, sometimes I end up regenning more hps than the person can even damage me in a 1v1.
I stopped reading this thread because it’s mostly redundant and regurgitation, but holy hell man. What a great post. Specifically that end bit.

I’ve said for years, we need a group of pkers who are not biased who can assist Imms with these things. Saif comes to mind for instance, as an example. I am not one. Razhak is not one. Just more examples.

The issue I keep seeing is these numbers worshiping fiends who are only looking there and not at larger impact game wise.
Yup. Most players are hyper zoomed in to their one or two chars. Everyone needs to step back, take a longer larger look at the whole, and then dive back in. If I could, I'd survey wholists like I mentioned. Ideally if we had a wholist of 100, I think I'd like to see this breakdown:
  • 40 warriors
  • 20 hunters
  • 15 rogues
  • 5 FCs
  • 2 MCs
  • 2 non-channie same-siders
  • 5 statters
Something like that would be so nice to see. You could extrapolate further, and this goes hand-in-hand with the aging playerbase and isn't possible, but of those 100,
  • 50 clanned
    • 10 rank 3s
    • 30 rank 4-6s
    • 10 masters
  • 50 unclanned
  • 1-2 DFs

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by isabel » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:44 pm

Ominas wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:32 am
Davor wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:40 am
For the two issues.

Warriors sucking:

Let warriors lead 1 more person, along with their humanoid bonus, they will in fact be the smob kings and leaders of PvE. They could also theoretically lead in PK at the cost of auto-track.

Abs sucking as a setup

Abs weapons need to be upped across the board. I still find it insane that the only good abs weapon is Justice/Malfeasor. There should be another 5 options that are just a small tier below these two and would be considered "rare." Heron greatsword is trash. Maul is trash. We made razor swords, OCG/darkened steel tridents, wicked knife bladed axes, steel hammer. Abs weapons got? Downed. Lolz.

By the time a player gets to the stage he now has an immortal and has the ability to make sweeping weapons changes, all his mortals are rogues, channelers and 19 19 18 combo hunters :p I believe many immortals don't understand how to balance abs because they don't play it. The only character I will tolerate abs on is Davor - solely because of his insane hp regen, sometimes I end up regenning more hps than the person can even damage me in a 1v1.
I stopped reading this thread because it’s mostly redundant and regurgitation, but holy hell man. What a great post. Specifically that end bit.

I’ve said for years, we need a group of pkers who are not biased who can assist Imms with these things. Saif comes to mind for instance, as an example. I am not one. Razhak is not one. Just more examples.

The issue I keep seeing is these numbers worshiping fiends who are only looking there and not at larger impact game wise.
This really so much. And I fully cop to it as having very limited experience and perspective. The issue is that players will trust the changes if it's been approved by people who we know actively and very competently pk across the board and have great pk brain.

I don't know how to say it politely but 85% of the time I post it's because I frankly do not have confidence in the people upstairs getting it right for abs pk because how many of you are actively pking in abs and/or understand and love it? everybody has their area of expertise and a competent core player advisory board would help everybody and most definitely cut down forum chatter.

In fact I can't find this post but some time ago Davor had offered to rebalance all the weapons in quick time.

tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by tekela » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:07 pm

isabel wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:44 pm
I don't know how to say it politely but 85% of the time I post it's because I frankly do not have confidence in the people upstairs getting it right for abs pk because how many of you are actively pking in abs and/or understand and love it?
You don't really need to play ABS to know there's something off when you play *against* the set-up, provided you're capable of stepping back and rationally assessing how much of your success is you and how much of it is something else. It's the exact inverse a lot of people's inability to assess how broken berserk attack was because they were personally benefitting from it compared to classes and bonuses that asked you to actually do more to capitalize. I've (recently) played abs on two alts, but I would say I've actually just eaten it more often.
Rig wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:40 am
Abs weapons are doing great in terms of damage right now.
Right -- but OB is ass and that combined with parry being downed on ABS weapons has actually resulted in bash being ass as well. This goes back to what Davor and I have been saying about ABS weapons basically needing to be able to do it all offensively because you sacrifice heavily in other departments. I don't think either of us have a problem with abs getting shredded (more deaths!) if they can also deal commensurate offensive output (bash/damage/ob -- more deaths!). You mentioned that combo doesn't have an HP bonus -- that's true, but in combo, you are going to regen far more over the course of PK because you spend less time getting hit per tick. That's just not the case with ABS.
The problem when it comes to an ABS set up is that sblade melee right now is atrocious. If you wanted to fix that and keep stab somewhat relevant, you'd give them less damage, more ob.
I don't know if the issue is the damage itself so much as the ability to stand there/flee around and deal it. The parry absolutely needs to be downed and I think if you fix that and make sbladers more hittable and bashable vis a vis upping abs weapons, you resolve a lot of the issues. Which is not to say damage couldn't use a slight reduction, but the parry is the biggest issue at the moment. A meta issue there is also the prevalence of high wil now too. If you want to stand/flee around dealing damage, you should absolutely have to flee more often than you would in years gone by.

Here's a thought: just remove high end parry gear and make parry more innate in abs weapons for the bash. Nobody is going to go combo with "abs weapons" because they have 30 parry and dodge trinkets, if you remove high end parry gear. You'd also resolve some of the issues around combo weapons bashing too well and insane defenses with high abs.

Sarryn
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:30 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Sarryn » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 pm

Lol at all this whining and constant drivel. All this fuss about abs is pretty funny. The constant drivel to down rogues into oblivion is hilarious. Abs is absolutely fine. I can’t even fathom how many times I’ve logged on naked grabbed a stored weapon and some barrel abs. Next thing I know I’m on a come up of a full set with rares and a rare weapon. Basically just get good people. Any and all sets/classes/bonuses have there drawbacks. Abs is a meat shield. Your not gonna live as long as a dodge combo player fking duh. Your not going to not get hit by every little thing. It’s been this way forever.

Anyone who’s been here forever has probably played all classes and setups. There all unique and got there own sets of perks and problems. Experience and understanding the game is like 70%+ of the battle. You gotta know the ins and out of combat mechanics/classes/races/gear/zones etc etc. There is no balancing players like Jaster/Zang/Rig/Jestin etc. These guys have learned the in’s and outs of the game. Couple that with great respect and a little fear sprinkled in when fighting. And you got yourself setup for a win already. People who’ve been here ages generally also have the best chars. Add bonuses and things on top of above. Now you add the best equipment on top of that. There’s no balancing these types of players. They’ve just reaped the rewards of hard work and experience.

Now lastly in my mind probably the biggest thing or right behind experience. Link. Links pretty huge on this game. It’s pretty insane seeing the advantages I have over someone in another country with a dung link. Now mines not the best. I have the best link you can buy in like a 5 state area. I pay stupid amounts for that. It’s the most expensive option, but this is my hobby so why not. That being said, here’s my contribution to balancing the game. Fix the lag on here Christ. I pull around or over a gig internet speed. I can honestly say my number one cause of death is link. Can’t fathom how many sets I’ve lost to the weirdest out of the blue lag. In situations that I’ve made plays/lives/or killed someone instead I end up dying because of lag. So yeah fix the lag on an incredibly simple text based game. That’s my request lol. 0 issues in any and every setting games or whatever internet related besides on my incredibly super advanced text based game. Lol

Anyways the downing of rogues suggestion is pretty funny. I don’t think there is anything that needs done to them. Oh no a CC has decent defense in combo?! Gasp whatever shall we do. Get real. In comparison daggers pale in most defense equals to other weapons. There’s a lot of variety in the different daggers. The melee damage being downed again is laughable. Let’s create it so there more one trick pony and spam flee stab. Yeah no that’s fking annoying. They need to be able to melee and finish things. Hell fcs break my defense more than I break there’s sometimes. In straight up melee vs most anything your bound to lose. Unless you use things to your advantage. Postures/bonuses help skew things a bit. I don’t think a rogue should only have to rely on flee stabs to get kills. There far from overpowered unless there in the wrong hands with bonuses :p That same thing applies to most things on here.

I’m gonna say I can’t honestly complain about much on the game. I think there’s too much complaining on the game. I’m guilty of it at times to. But honestly there’s a pretty good balance to most things. As someone who’s probably right near the top in 1vs1s. I’ve played in all different scenarios/setups/classes. Along with the more experienced players and pkers, you can win in any of them. You gotta use your experience to know and diagnose the situation. I’m not sure what the big fuss is.

To be fair everything was fine before all these changes. But… here we are. Apparently complaining that now abs is worthless my ob isn’t high enough I don’t hit someone every hit while bashed rogue damage is king cc is so leet blah blah blah.

zeek
Posts: 184
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by zeek » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:30 pm

*quietly watches from seandar*

Raiste
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:39 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Raiste » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:36 pm

Whether or not I agree with warriors being a PvE class, the changes have left them deserving of that description. I recommend you accept it, and that warriors are permitted to have a class change.

And, again: ABS is not a proper equipment set up. It is in the game for convenience. Feel free to explain why, in terms of melee-based combat without teamwork, characters who only have 2 out of 3 combat stats at an acceptable level should be equally competitive with characters that have 3. The mechanics of the game imply that combo isn't "an option", it is the mathematically correct setup. Dodge exists for special cases where classes have timers they need to complete without interruption. ABS exists for special cases where characters: 1) have boosted regen / WvD / healing to fulfill the traditional PvE tank role; 2) are handicapped by their stats; or, 3) are played by typists who don't have the time to gear up in a competitive set.

You won't be able to "fix" ABS in isolation. And it doesn't need to be fixed. It isn't broken. Your understanding of its niche in the ecosystem is simply incorrect.

zeek
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:46 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by zeek » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:41 pm

Raiste wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:36 pm
Whether or not I agree with warriors being a PvE class, the changes have left them deserving of that description. I recommend you accept it, and that warriors are permitted to have a class change.

And, again: ABS is not a proper equipment set up. It is in the game for convenience. Feel free to explain why, in terms of melee-based combat without teamwork, characters who only have 2 out of 3 combat stats at an acceptable level should be equally competitive with characters that have 3. The mechanics of the game imply that combo isn't "an option", it is the mathematically correct setup. Dodge exists for special cases where classes have timers they need to complete without interruption. ABS exists for special cases where characters: 1) have boosted regen / WvD / healing to fulfill the traditional PvE tank roll; 2) are handicapped by their stats; or, 3) are played by typists who don't have the time to gear up in a competitive set.

You won't be able to "fix" ABS in isolation. And it doesn't need to be fixed. It isn't broken. Your understanding of its niche in the ecosystem is simply incorrect.
Most good players have a decent inclination as to where you're going to run anyways. With or without track. Most hunters that have track aren't fast enough to actually put autotrack to good use in the first place so at that point you could argue the pracs are setup differently but you can more or less accomplish the same setups with warriors and hunters. I don't see the argument here. I don't think either is a "pve" class. People are so worried about stats but like sarryn explained earlier, the best players can play the worst stats and equipment and still crush people. They just understand how the game mechanics work - how mobs react, limitations of their gear, limitations of their opponents gear, picking up on patterns mid fight i.e. is someone engaging before running weaves or can I stab or charge them? List goes on. Good guys gonna keep being good. Everyone else has to just play and make the game fun for themselves or get gud. The people that are most "hurt" are also not "gud". Truth hurts.

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