Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

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zankou
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:17 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by zankou » Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:13 am

Detritus wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:47 pm
zankou wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:25 pm
I personally think the game was quite balanced before, and the only changes from the way it was a few months ago would be 1. Remove mounted OB, 2. Remove 21 str , 3. Fcs can only weave on who they are engaged on, 4. Keep serk attack but make it non prac dependent and proc maybe 25%.
I basically disagree with everyone one of these points, with a rider on the last point. Zerk attack is a viable option to use but it should go off less and be more prac dependant not less.

Power creep across the board is not related to the mounted obs vs 21 str (which is fairly balanced now with high availability of str potions).
FCs cannot go toe to toe with some characters, avoiding buffing people that are going to wreck you is a big part of playing channeler with capped HPs. (even more so if have any sort of zerk attack back)

Before any raft of changes and rebalancing i would have just dropped base(non weapon) obs of everyone at lvl30 by 5.
Vampa wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:59 pm
No predetermined time frame, we'd have updated it in a day if we were able. It will be updated this month, though, maybe even this week. Some things are outside of our control.
Did someone green light these changes in first place or is it just flash by himself?
Warrior changes and screwing forums is like someone is trying to deliberately sabotage mud.

Who cares if channelers can’t go toe to toe with certain characters!!! The bigger problem is that you need a gank squad to go toe to toe WITH a channeled. Serk attack balanced that some. As a channeler 1v1 I stand a chance against anyone. Even with serk attack. But a warrior with serk attack would stand a chance against me.... without serk attack he really stands no chance against me (if I’m a channeler).

Julen
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:02 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Julen » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:06 pm

isabel wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:59 am
good to see that imms are talking to players, even if it's taken a while :P but i think that pretty much everyone can/will weigh in (as happens on forums) whereas only some players truly understand game balance and see the bigger picture. why not set up a core committee to advise imms? they may not get it 100% right either, but I think the rightness % will be much higher and you can have a more meaningful conversation.
I'm not sure what this would accomplish other than to widen the divide between players who 'think right' and everyone else. The purpose of group forums are to share ideas equally between interested parties and generate new solutions. If you're confident your ideas are right, why not share them publicly with everyone so those who don't "see the big picture" can learn to understand?

Besides, Imms would have to already recognize these 'right-thinking' players in order to assemble the committee. It would be far less effort to continue the discussion publicly and, if Imms want, they can pay special attention to what the "core" players are saying without taking the voice from every other player. Excluding ideas ensures stagnation and, ultimately, death.

isabel
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by isabel » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:38 pm

Julen wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:06 pm
isabel wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:59 am
good to see that imms are talking to players, even if it's taken a while :P but i think that pretty much everyone can/will weigh in (as happens on forums) whereas only some players truly understand game balance and see the bigger picture. why not set up a core committee to advise imms? they may not get it 100% right either, but I think the rightness % will be much higher and you can have a more meaningful conversation.
I'm not sure what this would accomplish other than to widen the divide between players who 'think right' and everyone else. The purpose of group forums are to share ideas equally between interested parties and generate new solutions. If you're confident your ideas are right, why not share them publicly with everyone so those who don't "see the big picture" can learn to understand?

Besides, Imms would have to already recognize these 'right-thinking' players in order to assemble the committee. It would be far less effort to continue the discussion publicly and, if Imms want, they can pay special attention to what the "core" players are saying without taking the voice from every other player. Excluding ideas ensures stagnation and, ultimately, death.
I didn't mean me at all. There are players here who have not only been around for 20+ years but have also extensively played 2 or more sides as well as 3/4 or 4/4 classes and have a very nuanced understanding of pk. Is not very different from how governments normally work where they ask the experts rather than every single person (except in a referendum). So if they wanted to know whether players want a more pk oriented game or rp oriented then they can have an open conversation but this is actually a much more technical game balance question. People will mostly speak from their experience and/or their understanding of how stuff works. We just happen to have the benefit of player expertise which can be used.

Not saying we should exclude any ideas but it's just the difference between a layperson and expert views. So if they open it after they make a change after inputs from that core team the discussion would be quite different because it would be at a much better place and it would save us all time.

For example the channie hp reduction question. It was quite self-evident to anyone who pks across the board :p but dragged into long discussion.

chelou
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by chelou » Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:40 pm

Nunzio wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:02 am
I'm just going to throw this out there, but has anyone ever considered having weapons (heavy, blunt ones) that do more damage to abs? I know it hasn't been discussed, but it would definitely help differentiate a class of weapons.
this is actually a REALLY good idea if the goal is to get a larger mix of stuff out there, having something like an axe that does the same damage as a sword, lower ob, but bypasses a set % of abs would make it more effective against abs sets without throwing off a bunch of unintended things that you get when changing other things around. It would make it so that nothing was the go-to weapon for everything and could make kindve a rock-paper-scissors dynamic with further customizabilty through pracs.

Aureus
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Aureus » Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:59 pm

Julen wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:06 pm
isabel wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:59 am
good to see that imms are talking to players, even if it's taken a while :P but i think that pretty much everyone can/will weigh in (as happens on forums) whereas only some players truly understand game balance and see the bigger picture. why not set up a core committee to advise imms? they may not get it 100% right either, but I think the rightness % will be much higher and you can have a more meaningful conversation.
I'm not sure what this would accomplish other than to widen the divide between players who 'think right' and everyone else. The purpose of group forums are to share ideas equally between interested parties and generate new solutions. If you're confident your ideas are right, why not share them publicly with everyone so those who don't "see the big picture" can learn to understand?

Besides, Imms would have to already recognize these 'right-thinking' players in order to assemble the committee. It would be far less effort to continue the discussion publicly and, if Imms want, they can pay special attention to what the "core" players are saying without taking the voice from every other player. Excluding ideas ensures stagnation and, ultimately, death.
I agree with Julen's point of view. Good ideas come from anywhere, so why not invite the largest number of players to participate. We aren't trying to design-by-committee: we're going to listen to different perspectives and look for (well-considered) angles we maybe hadn't considered.

I'm not going to suggest that Imms have some special insight other players do not (beyond trying our best to be fair and neutral) or are going to get it right all (maybe even most?) of the time. It's probably not even possible to get things "right" since different people value different things about WoTMUD. And trying to please everyone all the time is an exercise in futility. In general, we'll do what we think is best for the largest number of players and for the long-term health and overall fun of the game: things that keep the game fun and occasionally fresh for existing players, and welcoming to new players as people come and go -- even though nobody ever really quits. ;)

Nunzio
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:47 am
Location: USA, Virginia

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Nunzio » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:24 am

chelou wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:40 pm
Nunzio wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:02 am
I'm just going to throw this out there, but has anyone ever considered having weapons (heavy, blunt ones) that do more damage to abs? I know it hasn't been discussed, but it would definitely help differentiate a class of weapons.
this is actually a REALLY good idea if the goal is to get a larger mix of stuff out there, having something like an axe that does the same damage as a sword, lower ob, but bypasses a set % of abs would make it more effective against abs sets without throwing off a bunch of unintended things that you get when changing other things around. It would make it so that nothing was the go-to weapon for everything and could make kindve a rock-paper-scissors dynamic with further customizabilty through pracs.
That's exactly what I was going for. Thanks for explaining a bit further for me :-D. The idea behind this is for that variability. With this you have a wider array of choice on how you want to play. It has the potential to help make group pk even more interesting

Mhaliah
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:48 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Mhaliah » Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:28 pm

Nunzio wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:24 am
chelou wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:40 pm
Nunzio wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:02 am
I'm just going to throw this out there, but has anyone ever considered having weapons (heavy, blunt ones) that do more damage to abs? I know it hasn't been discussed, but it would definitely help differentiate a class of weapons.
this is actually a REALLY good idea if the goal is to get a larger mix of stuff out there, having something like an axe that does the same damage as a sword, lower ob, but bypasses a set % of abs would make it more effective against abs sets without throwing off a bunch of unintended things that you get when changing other things around. It would make it so that nothing was the go-to weapon for everything and could make kindve a rock-paper-scissors dynamic with further customizabilty through pracs.
That's exactly what I was going for. Thanks for explaining a bit further for me :-D. The idea behind this is for that variability. With this you have a wider array of choice on how you want to play. It has the potential to help make group pk even more interesting
Ironically every weapon already does this. As an abs player get hit their gear get worse and worse at abs.

Since abs is the only set that is tied to condition. I very much oppose this.

arston
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by arston » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:13 pm

Mhaliah wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:28 pm
Nunzio wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:24 am
chelou wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:40 pm


this is actually a REALLY good idea if the goal is to get a larger mix of stuff out there, having something like an axe that does the same damage as a sword, lower ob, but bypasses a set % of abs would make it more effective against abs sets without throwing off a bunch of unintended things that you get when changing other things around. It would make it so that nothing was the go-to weapon for everything and could make kindve a rock-paper-scissors dynamic with further customizabilty through pracs.
That's exactly what I was going for. Thanks for explaining a bit further for me :-D. The idea behind this is for that variability. With this you have a wider array of choice on how you want to play. It has the potential to help make group pk even more interesting
Ironically every weapon already does this. As an abs player get hit their gear get worse and worse at abs.

Since abs is the only set that is tied to condition. I very much oppose this.
Well the idea isnt to make something that's out to nerf abs, its to make different weapons slightly more effective vs different armor sets. Axes were just one example of what could be "good against abs" by having a little lower ob, and going through a portion of abs%, not enough to make it a sure thing but enough to make an abser who is buffing an axe have to weight the benefit of fleeing off and retargetting someone else just like channelers do in pk or standing and buffing. Then you could have something like fencing blades that realistically wouldnt be able to get through armor anyway get affected by abs% twice as much, so they would hardly do anything at all vs an abser but would have enough ob that they could hit a dodger more often making them "good against dodgers" but near useless against absers.

The thought behind this is that something similar to those examples would make it so that one weapon isnt the all-powerful go-to for everything, but would make each weapon good against one thing. Not enough that if you go against an axe it's gonna for sure kill you and theres nothing you can do about it, but enough to give you a slight advantage and give an incentive to possibly praccing mulitple weapons so you can pull out the right one depending on what your oppenant is wearing.

The only reason I used bypassing abs% as an example (in my head i was thinking like 5% of whatever abs% the opponent had) was that it it makes it more effective specifically against one particular armor set without making it overpowerful in every other aspect of the game. That way its weaker in everything else, but stronger against one set, differentiating it without breaking the game. Ideally most weapon sets would have some similar thing that would set it apart for a specialized use without making it crazy strong or perfect for everything.

arston
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by arston » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:21 pm

Also while redoing stuff if you could please make it easy to tell which items are throwable without having the item or looking up a table online that would be awesome. possible example of like all 1h spears are throwable and all 2h spears chargeable or some other heuristic that we could use to know what a weapon will be able to do or not would be cool.

Detritus
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Detritus » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:46 pm

Bypassing abs for some weapons is in theory relatively easy, being just an inverse of current warrior mitigation(damage after abs calculation), is just dependant on where in the code calculation it's possible to actually weapon check without bloating code.

Lower "weapon damage" dice and flat damage after mitigation. It's actually a better option for "crushing" clubs rather than +9% bash (which means have to take into account for all bash balancing).

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