Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

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Fermin
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:16 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Fermin » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:28 pm

No one is really whining or blaming immortals nor are people trying to advocate for better characters to somehow get better. The fact is, the weapons changes are less fun 1v1 and less fun in groups, if you feel otherwise please elaborate.

Dodge was not 'balanced' before, it was a high risk high reward setup that most times you could firetruck around and be pretty safe but if you made 1 or 2 mistakes you died. Not kidding, some people are thinking dodge was all OP with all the rares - I don't really think so. Dodge gave you the least amount of margin of error unless you were pking against a few that didn't have the rares/stats/characters to actually bash you. Dodge is better 'balanced' now and the method where you leave PK at below hurt is going to work 10x better then it did before. Dodge 1v1 against anything is massively more 'balanced' read risky, so you will see even fewer dodgers pk 1v1 they will work from full hps in group fights if they aren't interested in dieing. The top trinkets for 'dodge' now are better on my hunters for the bash and extra defense. So I think dodge (non channeler dodge) is in a worse place.

ABS is just getting crushed by short blades and MOBS and is in a worse place (see other explanations). I have been swayed by the good posts and don't think this is attack related but just abs related.

Combo now seems the best setup a similar margin to what it was before the previous round of changes which fixed all the problems we have now.

Is combo being the best setup good for the game? I don't know. Maybe that's more fun for everyone. It is obviously the setup which you can push a character to low hps in 1v1 and group pk and take certain risks resulting in fun pk. In the hands of top PKers you will see less deaths then if they are in dodge (trolloc rogues were already mostly in combo, I think LS will make the switch). Channelers will be the dodge / parryeq users and can probably still die in a bash so we will still see some explosions.

It used to be that a rogue in combo was hit every round unbashed vs 2 opponents, I'm not sure this is the case anymore. Before I remember being around 150 parry in combo, now I'm 170.

Sorry, just read like 4 pages and chiming in again.

Stanislav
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Stanislav » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:08 am

Absolutely agree with what Fermin said.

Currently abs is being crap because abs weapon do the same damage and have same ob as combo weapons(in most of cases, may be 1-2 damage difference). In other words abs has all his own flaws, yet doesn't have significant benefits over combo.

It would definately help if regular abs weapons had same damage as abs rares(around 27 ave) have now and abs rares had even more. That would make abs an offensive setup, while combo remained defensive. Currently combo fits into both roles throwing abs outside.

Thore
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Thore » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:15 am

Stanislav wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:08 am
Absolutely agree with what Fermin said.

Currently abs is being crap because abs weapon do the same damage and have same ob as combo weapons(in most of cases, may be 1-2 damage difference). In other words abs has all his own flaws, yet doesn't have significant benefits over combo.

It would definately help if regular abs weapons had same damage as abs rares(around 27 ave) have now and abs rares had even more. That would make abs an offensive setup, while combo remained defensive. Currently combo fits into both roles throwing abs outside.
Agreed. I think we should, for now, ignore the fact that ABS is easier to acquire. We can always change that, too. Give players a different reason to be ABS. Saving pracs is a legit benefit, removing free clan practices help this a lot, but it's not enough.

Stanislav
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Stanislav » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:54 pm

There is another idea which actually makes sense, but I am not sure if its possible to code.

Pure dice roll shouldn't be the only factor to determine weapon damage. It would be great to add something like abs penetration tied to weapon weight. Imagine great sword or maul breaking through iron armor. Now think of a wooden spear or medium blade, would they have the same effect against heavy armour? I don't think so.

Stab and charge should probably take abs into account aswell.

Naerin
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 12:29 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Naerin » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:53 pm

Agree with what's been said about upping abs - while abs is easier to acquire, I wouldn't say anything is *hard* right now, and that's certainly not a reason to leave an entire setup below others.
Stanislav wrote:Pure dice roll shouldn't be the only factor to determine weapon damage. It would be great to add something like abs penetration tied to weapon weight. Imagine great sword or maul breaking through iron armor. Now think of a wooden spear or medium blade, would they have the same effect against heavy armour? I don't think so.
An interesting change that I haven't explored the consequences of would be to change the bash formula to swap formulas at 17 lb rather than 10 or whatever, so that abs weapons have a monopoly on bashing. That's one of the few ways weapon weight influences combat right now so it's an easier addition - could also just add OB to abs weapons (as has been discussed) to simulate what you're saying.
Stanislav wrote:Stab and charge should probably take abs into account aswell.
This idea scares me and might not be possible - it scares me because combo is at 80-90% of full abs % so would also become functionally immune to stab/charge, and it might not be possible because abs % works by reducing hits to a certain body part, and stab/charge aren't hitting a body part with an abs value.

cazor
Posts: 1
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by cazor » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:01 pm

Fully agree that each setup should have its place, and there should be a reason people would want to play a set FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE, i.e. combo should be better when 1vs1 in pk, abs should be better when hitting a patty, dodge should be better at running a stab/weave without getting interrupted. So combo should be better at what its good for, and probably be a bit better overall because its harder to to gather a set with all the trinkets and everything.

On the other hand it probably shouldnt be THIS MUCH better: as an example I fought Ominas 1vs 1, was no mob support on either side. He didnt bash or send any commands other than to talk for almost the entire battle "to keep things interesting". I was using abs set while building up a combo set, ig sword and shield, wore the shield to get the extra pb for bash, then removed it to get the 24 damage per hit. I got lucky with my bashes, landing a bit more than 65% of them but still had to flee off beat while he was only wounded, WITHOUT HIM EVER ATTEMPTTING A BASH OR ANYTHING. He then hunted me down and killed me but the point is that he couldve killed me while he was afk, I came nowhere close to outputting the same amount of damage, even landing most of my bashes.

In my opinion abs% should be upped a bit, the weapons on mobs that now deal a bunch more damage really hurts it, and combo weapons doing a ton more damage really mean that they are taking a lot more damage from each side and die very quickly. When you have 30 pages of comments, and the only use that the top pk'ers can come up with for it is to "start dying and run to a patty so that you might get lucky from the mobs killing them for you and you can get a real set of equipment" you know that its bad.

Fermin
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:16 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Fermin » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:50 pm

"High Level Changes
In general with these changes, we’re adhering to the following set of beliefs:

No weapon class should be great at everything, outside of special rare weapons like heron blades. Today, the differences between many weapon classes - abs especially - are minimal. We are pushing weapon classes apart more into distinct identities. E.g., clubs for bash, long blades for ob, axes for damage. That means trimming back power in some areas, and adding it in others.
Dodge should be more competitive than it is today. We’re aiming for a roughly 25% bash rate vs a full dodge set with a high end non-rare, non-club abs weapon as a non-master. Depending on the weapon, it’s often upwards of 50-60% today.
Dodge doesn’t need the abs% some of its non-rare pieces have. Getting hit in dodge should hurt. We’re trimming this back.
OB is coming down across the board to reign in bash chance.
We’re keeping an eye on the impact this will have on parry setups, but aren't planning to make changes here yet.
The current range in db in a good or rare set (~135-160) makes it almost impossible to balance around. Good dodge is either a joke or high end dodge is unbashable. We have to balance around the high end, but also feel that dodge should be more accessible than it is today, vs requiring rares to play. So we’re compressing the range of db:
The extra db on dodge rares is being shifted into pb instead, at a favorable rate (greater than 1:1).
Abs weapon damage should, in general, be higher than it is today to account for stronger dodge.
Combo damage is getting a smaller buff.
Stab and charge damage are improving to account for the adjustment to the impact of master damage. In particular, you will see wider ranges for both, but an improvement overall."

Fermin
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Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:16 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Fermin » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:50 pm

Just wanted to go back and see what the actual goal was and if any of it was achieved.

isabel
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Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by isabel » Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:59 am

So Austin said this on discord today:
I think by now it should be becoming apparent that I am and will continue trying to make things better, and at times that means I'll firetruck up any they'll be worse; but I'll keep working towards better
We're still going to do work on warriors
And weapons
And other stuff
We're very slow to work on combat formulas and will remain so, those are massive
It sounds like they're still looking at stuff but gradualy etc, and we should be patient.

Dimmu
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:38 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Dimmu » Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:51 am

isabel wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:59 am
So Austin said this on discord today:
I think by now it should be becoming apparent that I am and will continue trying to make things better, and at times that means I'll firetruck up any they'll be worse; but I'll keep working towards better
We're still going to do work on warriors
And weapons
And other stuff
We're very slow to work on combat formulas and will remain so, those are massive
It sounds like they're still looking at stuff but gradualy etc, and we should be patient.
I do hope this is followed through, as being forced to only play rogues or FC's is very boring. Retired still until or if this ever happens.

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