Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

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Nylen
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:18 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Nylen » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:03 pm

I know this isn't quite balance-related, but my three items on my weapon wish-list:

1) A Harpoon should be up there with the top javelins. Why? Because it's COOL and right now there's no reason to use it. I want to throw harpoons! Yarrr!

2) A trolloc catchpole should be up there with top abs polearms like halberd for no other reason beside that it's RPish and would be fun to see Trollocs running around with trolloc catchpoles.

3) It would be neat if there was a split for top-end wrist trinks. Like, jeweled wristcuff for combo/parry and twisted silver coils for dodge (or vice versa). Makes for something fun to shoot for at the top end in each setup, and actually puts stats on the coils which are cool but currently useless.

Adael
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Adael » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:36 pm

Auriona wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am
Adael - If what you're saying is that the current meta makes it so that no one is playing their non-masters, non-warriors, non-gaidin right now, I would agree and suggest that whatever people are fighting against this month isn't a representative indicator of the characters that people would be playing if the meta wasn't broken. Trolls will still be playing their masters.
Not quite what I was going for I think, but I also posted that this morning so I couldn’t say for sure :P.
Gaidin will still be playing their gaidin (there’s always been a fair few in pk), and human warriors will still play their human warriors - albeit at different rates in the future once things change, sure. My comment was mostly to Draz’s “what standard of dodge do you want, because every DS I pk is a master warrior and they’re bashing me at the max rate” - that’s a bit of an exaggeration I think, especially with less reason for people to zerk now. DS has a greater propensity for warriors, but I’d say masters are usually evenish on each side. Humans are still just as good/better at bashing, overall.
Auriona wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am
Y'all do realize that you can effectively eat many more weaves now before dying and that spell points are a finite pool, right?
Zarth answered that I’d say. It’s lost in the noise mostly, —maybe— allowing you to eat 1-2 more weaves.

Dimmu
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:38 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Dimmu » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:54 pm

Auriona wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am
Adael - If what you're saying is that the current meta makes it so that no one is playing their non-masters, non-warriors, non-gaidin right now, I would agree and suggest that whatever people are fighting against this month isn't a representative indicator of the characters that people would be playing if the meta wasn't broken. Trolls will still be playing their masters.
byrg wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am
Dimmu wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:12 am
A ~25% to chance to bash(solo vs)a top end dodge set is ok, but the the person getting sat needs to take the full 2 rounds of damage - no parried hits or autowimpy flees, otherwise the risk vs reward is not worth the effort. Increased OB might help, but at best this is only a band-aid to the underlying issue with bash, being the only offensive skill that even when you're successful, you can still deal 0 damage.
Definitely this. Once this all goes into play if you're getting sat, you should be eating damage for those hits, and autowimpy shouldn't be a get out of jail free card.
Y'all do realize that you can effectively eat many more weaves now before dying and that spell points are a finite pool, right? And that horses are still very bashable? How much more advantage do y'all need at this point? Dodge is a risky and difficult playstyle that comes with it's own risks and rewards.
Assuming a bash lands 1 in every 4 attempts and 1) No hits are parried or 2) autowimpy does not kick in, I would expect to deal ~60-80 damage and receive 250-300 in return - sounds fair right? But I approve of your bash horse idea though, consider it done.

Taziar
Posts: 926
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Location: !Discord

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Taziar » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:11 pm

I think Adael made a very valid point early on that most have not been keying in on: weapon weight. Weapon weight is the more valuable number to work with to determine if the weapon is a "bashing" weapon and not offensive bonus. This is where you can still have melee hits land with higher offensive bonus but determine bash percentage variance.

Further reading:
Thuvia encumbrance testing: http://www.wotmudarchives.org/forum/vie ... f=4&t=2354
Thuvia OB, DB, and PB calculations: http://www.wotmudarchives.org/forum/vie ... f=4&t=2347
Thuvia and Hress STR bonus to damage: http://www.wotmudarchives.org/forum/vie ... f=4&t=2351

Rig
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Location: JESUS

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Rig » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:52 pm

Will also point out that adding parry makes it harder to hit people bashed/unbashed, which is another reason adding parry to dodge is awful

:ugeek:

Jaster
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:17 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Jaster » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:49 pm

Rig wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:52 pm
Will also point out that adding parry makes it harder to hit people bashed/unbashed, which is another reason adding parry to dodge is awful

:ugeek:
If we would stop nerfing rare trinkets and additional rare items, you would see more in play because it would actual create a value and reason to use them. If we keep reducing them to confetti bracelets and badges, they will sit in rents. There is no reason to go through the trouble acquiring or putting together sets when you will just get stomped by something who killed SK and was ready to go. There seems to be a disconnect between those who play consistently and those who try to balance those who play. What is the threshold or dart board that is thrown to that deems something acceptable before we need to down or nerf it. Everyone here is a volunteer and I get that and appreciate it. But we are at a point of creating more disconnect for the players and it goes well beyond eq. Anytime something is done or achieved by the players, its almost like a flag to address or change it immediately. You could even just chain reaction it off of recent changes.

Warrior change rolled out and a large base didnt approve or want to continue in the participation in its current form. A few decided to participate in another piece of the game killing cityheads to achieve personal goals. Quickly it was slapped down and adjusted. We can fool ourselves and put that as an issue staff were addressing long ago, but It is far fetched to believe that. Players took 2 1/2hrs to kill large cityheads with a group and were rewarded 17-20 qps and 3 tokens. Now reduced to a few tokens and 4-5 qps in the "Fix" to players doing stuff together. Not worth the time and effort now IMO. Players then move on. The pattern continues until there is nothing to move on to for enjoyment. This is just one example of a change that had a major negative impact on the Player Killing aspect of the game and the chain reaction that then effected the PVE part of the game with a negative impact. Both sides of players who enjoy either get disconnected because of one change. I think this forum is nice and is asking for input, I believe like most it will fall on deaf ears because there are two realities of those playing vs those balancing. And I really do like those that are trying to "balance", but they are trying to create a wotmud world that others really arent seeking.

Rig
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Location: JESUS

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Rig » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:03 pm

Jaster is correct. Really don’t like saying that!

Zarth
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:04 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Zarth » Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:21 pm

I've given this some more though, played with some numbers and examined some logs. I think there are a few issues here that will make it quite difficult to balance this the way you appear to be thinking.

Let's start by examining the main premises:
1) No weapon should be great at everything except for rares. In my opinion, this is already the case. None of the abs weapons, even rares, touch herons or even dsts when it comes to all around goodness as they provide 0 survivability. If the argument is that we're just considering offensive capabilities then I say that's there's a lower bound for all 3 axes (OB, Bash, Damage) for the weapon to be at all viable. Currently the top end weapons for abs exceed this bound, and then there is some differentiation beyond that. I worry that the proposed changes will be bringing abs weapons below that bound on 1 or 2 of the axes and that most of the weapons will be useless in general pk.

2) Dodge should be more competitive than it is today.
This really appears to be the main issue and I think that the question should be considered in 2 ways.
Is dodge not competitive because it is weak specifically againstabs, or is dodge not competitive because combo is strong and there's no reason to pick dodge above it.
So is dodge weak? I'd argue that with regards to 1v1 pk dodge is the hardest to win with and the hardest to lose in. If a dodger is fighting an abser then it is difficult for the dodger to win the fight, but once the dodger decides to leave it is almost impossible for the abser to finish the job. For example, let's say I'm sitting at 200/35/2/17.3 ob/pb/db/weapon weight and fighting a 145/145/145 ob/db/pb setup. With axen I do on average 40 damage per hit and they absorb 9% so we're looking at ~37 damage per hit. The calculators show that I have a 52% chance to bash and a 90% chance to hit while bashed. If the dodger stands there doing nothing, they're going to get destroyed. Once they start trying to escape it turns around completely. With that same setup I have a 4% chance to hit them unbashed. This jives with my look through of my logs, dodgers do not get their defense broken 1v1. If they start running so that I need 2 hits to get them (basically when a bash without autoflee will kill them). I either need to catch them enough to get 4 bashes off (need to land 2 bashes cause of autoflee) or I need to hit them 50 times before they get safe. This is certainly difficult!

Compare this to abs. Excluding channelers, an abser is probably going to start trying to escape at a lower number of hps than a dodger. If I start trying to get away at 50 hps then with the proposed changes coming in they'll be doing on average 1.5ish damage per hit and they have to catch me 30 times. Certainly not easy, but combined with the fact that I'm eating at least 1 hp from every mob that aggros me it's simpler task.

Go through your logs and try to find one of a solo person killing a dodger who was trying to escape. Bonus points if you can find one without berserk attack. I don't think it happens that often. When combined with the fact that if the dodger practices kick to even 90% then they'll pretty much avoid all bashes I do not think dodge has an issue in 1v1 pk.

Where dodge falls off a cliff is when they're outnumbered. This is where people who complain about unbashed hits have a point. If you have 1 guy with 200 ob on a 145/145 setup there's as I said a 4% chance to hit unbashed. If there are 2 guys with 200 ob the chance skyrockets to 9%, 42%, 49% for 2 hits, 1 hit, 0 hits per round. In more than half of the rounds the dodger is taking a hit! Now it's trivial to catch up to them and kill them. So let's say we want to cap that a bit and we reduce the top end weapon ob to 180, now it's 3%, 28%, 69%, it's certainly much more difficult but now the solo person has a 0.42% chance to hit. And even a 30% chance to hit someone unbashed is probably still too much.

I think the issue with dodge is that it's survivability doesn't scale down linearly with number of opponents. If an abs or combo player get hit by 2 their survivability is about half and they can still reason about where they are and get plan to get away. If a dodger gets hit by 2 they're in trouble. This is compounded by the fact that 1 of the main playstyles for dodge (stab) basically means you're going to be fighting multiple opponents often.

toshiro
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:25 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by toshiro » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:52 am

I'd like to add a bit to the weapon variability discussion by showing a comparison for combo hunters using a finely axe, shining silver plated sword, and a brass hilted sword.

These are the statistics pulled off of the calculators against abs, combo, and dodge, assuming mounted brave human against a dismounted wimpy human with 19 str 19 dex. The opponent combo is good heavy combo with good parry trinks, and the opponent dodge is in good dodge with good dodge trinks.

Edit: Originally posted the melee only histograms, updated to show bash histograms.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... ptions.png

These are the combat statistics if you are using a brave finely axe, mounted with 99 sparry, weapon, bash.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _stats.png

Brass Hilted:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... h_stas.png

Shining Silver Plated:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _stats.png

Please let me know if you cannot access the links.

The way that I interpret this is

1. Finely axe has very consistent damage due to 10 d 3. It is the best against combo/abs due to high ob and consistent damage, and the fact that wimpy combo finely axe maxes bash % against combo (still a 12+ lb weapon). But, if I run into a dodger, I'm going to have to leave or immediately use mobs. It's great damage, great ob, but the low weight makes it not versatile enough. I'll only practice this if I make a WB so that I can afford to also practice 1h clubs.

2. Due to brass hilted's higher ob and weight, it is the best against dodge. Despite the more variable damage, It's still the best vs combo b/c the higher OB means that they parry less bashed hits. The inconsistent damage makes it the worse against ABS, where the extra weight and OB don't mean anything.

3. Due to higher parry, lower ob, and more consistent damage, silver plated is better than BH against abs, and slightly worse vs combo and dodge. It's still competitive in all cases, making it the jack of all trades choice as desired.

I expect to run into mostly abs, some combo, and few dodge folk when fighting DS. Fighting LS, I need to be able to bash channies and break their defense as reliably as possible. For these reasons, my LS chars use a silver plated sword, and my DS char uses a brass hilted. But I still want to be able to fight all setups reliably, so the finely is out unless i dual weapon for a bone club.

Ultimately, weight, ob, and damage are all linked when in comes to combat effectiveness. So saying each weapon type will have a good attribute may be desirable, but what people will care about is the damage output statistics versus the most common setups. I think right now, the choice between BH and SSP is an example of good tradeoffs: both are very competitve, but which is most competitive depends on what the current meta is and you're preferred playstyle. The finely axe is an example of a bad tradeoff, and weapons like this won't see much play outside of exp.

For combo weapons, it seems like what you are going for is that axes will be best against abs and good against combo and dodge. Clubs will be the best vs dodge and good against combo and abs, and lblades best against combo and good against dodge. Medium blades should be good vs abs dodge and combo. This feels like the way we have it setup already TBH, and if you differentiate the classes by making the differences more dramatic, then we will end up with the finely axe situation across the board.

In general, it's probably odd that I have a 39% chance to land a bash against 146 dodge with a brave brass hilted on a mounted non-master. This really seems to be an issue with how much parry contributes to bash (if you remove parry, there is only a 3% chance to bash 146 db), or how much OB and weight combo weapons have. For example, a 13 lb finely axe, mounted, wimpy will bash 80 db 65% of the time. It's a bit crazy that 13 lb wimpy combo bashes the most popular setup (combo) just as effectively as a brave master warrior with a 20 lb cleaver. For this reason, I only practice 85% dodge on my combo chars, b/c the practices are more effectively spent elsewhere.

Shifting damage across the board will affect the speed of the game by shifting the average damage output up. Upping OB will increase the damage against combo and dodge, and not really affect the damage to abs.

Regardless, players are going to optimize around whatever parameters you set. ABS deals the most damage and takes the least damage in direct combat, but pays for it when getting chased. Dodge takes the most damage in direct combat (assuming dodge/bash setup, not channies), but benefits from easier escape. Combo balances the two. If you want to change things, I would decide how you want the damage distributions to look for each setup against each setup, and then tinker with the parameters until it looks the way you want. I don't think it should be about which weapons have what stats in which quantities, rather it should be about what weapons are good against which setups. Weird caveat : dodge channies and dodge/attack/melee chars can deal significant amounts of damage and have easy escape, which is why you typically only see dirks/dodge and channie/dodge.

If the mud was larger, it would be cool if you had a bone club user that dealt little damage paired up with a finely axe user. But 1) you would have to outnumber your opponent for it to be useful, and 2) you would have to coordinate on group setups. The latter is difficult on a mud where practice resets are expensive and you lose all your EQ when you die. Personally, I would prefer each setup to be like the silver-plated/brass-hilted situations, so that I can either choose whatever weapon seems coolest, or slightly tailor my setup to the current meta.

Some caveats to this analysis: it assumes both opponents are bashing every round, doesn't account for channies, melee attack users, etc. Those are not the most common setups, and I'm too lazy to pull the info from the calculators. Plus I know next to nothing about channies. I only look at 1v1 combat, but as Zarth mentioned, there is a lot to be said about balancing around other situations as well.

Julen
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Julen » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:14 pm

I have a few points of feedback to add that a few others have also touched on, but I mostly wanted to express my excitement and appreciation for all the changes that are happening lately 😊 Even where I disagree with the changes, I’m extremely happy that volunteers are putting in the effort to improve a 27 year old game purely because they love it, so thank you!

1. Weapon differentiation
I absolutely agree there’s not a lot of differentiation between some of the classes (looking at you heavy axes and 2-handed long blades). There’s also a lot of areas where the differentiation was supposed to happen but didn’t: Lances are heavy and can bash, but spears have high parry and wind up bashing better; medium blades are supposed to be known for high defense, but 2-handed staves offer as high (or higher) with comparable damage, as do 1-handed spears (and they include charge!). Other weapon groups have their own unique aspect (flails multi-hit, javelins throw/stab, fblades disarm, etc.) but are usually so far below other classes in combat capability that they only get used as backup weapons or not at all. I’d definitely love to see some differentiation between the groups and a clear reason why I should choose one over the other. On the other hand, I like the fact that I can pick up a leatherleaf and be just as effective as a silver-plated while looking cooler ;)

2. Dodge/bash
I absolutely agree that the current bash landing rate is overkill (an abs mattock can bash 130 DB 70% of the time with no rares). Bashing is an extremely cheap, common skill that completely negates dodge’s main purpose (imagine having a weapon that bypasses abs 70% of the time!). It should be harder to accomplish and needs to be reduced to a rarity, not a certainty.

However, I don’t think the way to do that is by decreasing OB across the board. Dodge itself is still extremely effective in melee combat, and reducing OB will just make it even more effective. Almost any decent setup can pull 120+ DB and 150+ PB with basic dodge and no rares. Even against an opponent with 200 OB, you’re still only getting hit in melee once every 26 rounds (3.87% hit chance). Reducing everyone’s OB to the point that average bashers land 25% of the time virtually guarantees a dodger is never touched outside a bash.

As others have said, I think a much more reliable method of reducing bash is to reduce weapon weight. If every 2-handed weapon received a 75% reduction of all weight over 15 lbs, [(x-15)*(1-0.75)+15] it would eliminate the weight creep that’s built up over the years and bring all the bashing weapons into a smaller range of weights and success rates. For example, the heaviest non-rare (a titanic ebon axe) would drop from 18.5 to 15.9 lbs and reduce its bash chance from 65% to 35% against 130 DB; a spiked warhammer drops from 17.5 lbs (60% bash rate) to 15.6 lbs (38% with club bonus), and a claymore from 16.7 lbs (52%) to 15.4 lbs (36%). Slightly higher than your goal of 25%, but done without changing any other aspect of combat that might have unintended consequences.

Since parry is factored into bash also, 1-handed weapons should also have their weight reduced by 75% for all weight over 12 lbs (under 12 just isn’t reliable enough to bother changing IMO). With this change, a pale steel longsword (already 12 lbs) and a silver etched in leather armor can sit 130 DB about 26% of the time, which sounds right on the money. A finely crafted axe would drop from 13 lbs (40% bash) to 12.3 lbs (31%), and a steel-shafted lance drops from 16 lbs (63%) to 13 lbs (28% bash rate).

Obviously, this is only a quickly thought-out solution and wouldn’t work 100% of the time. Certain weapons may need to be tweaked individually, like a bone club. Even reducing the weight from 15 lbs to 12.7, with leather combo and a silver etched shield it would still bash 130 DB 40% of the time. Lowering OB or PB could bring this into line with other weapons, or it could be left as a supreme bash weapon. I’m not sure what the game balance needs, but it’s something to think about.

3. Rare Dodge to PB
I understand why you think this needs to happen. Compared to 20+ years ago when I started, the number of rares in the game is astounding. With the amount floating around out there and the difference between having them and not having them, it does seem like something needs to be done. However, I don’t think parry should be upped if you’re also talking about lowering OB; one or the other, not both. Reducing OB and increasing rare PB will make rare dodgers untouchable even if they're bashed 25% of the time like normal dodgers.

4. Heavy weapon damage increase
I disagree here. Abs isn’t getting increased; dodge isn’t getting increased; HPs aren’t getting increased. Increasing weapon damage is just contributing to the same kind of power creep that’s been happening for 27 years. I recently came back after a long, long break and was astonished to see how much better EVERYTHING has gotten. Full abs used to be 82%. Now, it’s up to 87 with smobbable equipment. I’m not sure if the DB gained from full dodge has increased, but I do know it’s a million times easier to get than it used to be. 20 years ago, I’d have to smob for hours and still need to rely on luck to win a shoufa or tooled boots in the group lottery. Now, I can pick it up from barrels or craft it with some needle and thread. Adding damage is just going to lead to upping abs/dodge again a few years down the road. Instead, I think you should tackle the problem from a different angle and try to claw back some of those power creeps that have made weapon damage “too low” like increased abs and all the parry added to dodge eq. Once those are reduced, maybe damages could be dialed back as part of the weapon group differentiation (e.g. axes can max at 4d8 or 4d9, clubs at 5d6 or 5d7, and swords at 6d5 or 6d6. Differences in consistency but nothing higher than 36 damage).

From what I’ve seen, the heavy weapons that get used the most all average 18-22 damage per hit +5 for honing, +5 master damage, and +2 strength bonus with 19 str, for 32 damage per hit ON AVERAGE (I don't have a master but it seems like everyone else does, so I included it). Good rolls cap the damage somewhere around 70 per hit. If a group of 3 walks in and bashes a dodger, it’s a good chance they’re dead in 3-4 rounds. Increasing heavy weapon damage will shorten that to 2 or 3 rounds, and 2 of that would be spent sitting down. That’s essentially instant death if the target looks away at the wrong time or gets a lag spike.
As it stands right now, abs is actually the overpowered one IMO. In a 1v1 fight, dodge should have the advantage, which is consistent with the WoT and American storytelling in general: The lighter armored good guy defeats the heavily-armored villain because right is on his side (see farmers vs. trollocs, blademasters vs. soldiers, or the concept behind the Whitecloak's Trial under the Light).

If a basher lands 50% of their bashes and 50% of their bashed hits, that averages 8 damage per round {0 missed bash +0 landed bash +32 bashed hit +0 bashed miss / 4}. In that same time, a 17 str dodger with a short blade will average less than half that {7d3+2d4+2d4+0str=24 avg * (1-0.85) abs reduction = 3.6 dmg} and get 4 hits in before being bashed (3.6 hit + 3.6 attack +3.6 hit +3.6 attack +0 bashed +0 bashed / 4 = 3.6 dmg/round). Even a 19 str dodger with a heron only deals 5 damage per hit (5d8+2d4+2d4+2 * 15%) through abs and averages less than 3 damage per turn (5+5+0+0/4).

Reducing bash landing to 25% brings those numbers into closer alignment but still favors the basher: (Basher: 0 +0 +0 +0 +31 +0 = 5 dmg/round vs. Sblades Dodger: (3.6*2) +(3.6*2) +(3.6*2) +3.6 +0 +0 = 4.2 dmg/round). Considering that most abs bashers are warriors with the new damage reduction, that skews the numbers even further in favor of abs vs. dodge.
Based on these numbers, I can’t see any reason why we would need to up heavy weapon damage to “balance dodge.” If anything, I think we might need to reduce abs to make dodge more competitive!

5. Stab & Charge damage increase
No. Full stop. From what I’ve read, stab and charge were broken for years and added too much master damage. That finally gets fixed and your first instinct is to increase damage again? Why? Because clan masters got too used to one-shotting players and now that they can’t they feel underpowered? Granted, I do agree that giving it to everyone equally is fair, but I don’t think it needs to be given in the first place. It’s easy enough to get killed out there without adding unnecessary bonuses to damage. I’ve never had master charge damage and I still think it works great. Let the new changes sit for a while and see how things go before dialing up the power creep again.

Like I said, I’m really appreciative of the changes going on. I just want to be sure we don’t skew things too far one way or the other and would like to rein in the power creep to more manageable levels.

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