Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

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Taziar
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Location: !Discord

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Taziar » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:06 am

Spears class
One thing that has always annoyed me about the class in regards to throwing a spear is the seemingly randomization of what you can and cannot throw. Some 2h spears can be thrown while some 1h spears cannot be. I propose the following: flag all one-handed spears throw, and flag all 2h spears !throw.

To go a step further, there are two special attacks that can be used with spears: throw and charge. The way damage is calculated for spear thrown damage (via Hress testing) is (2x)dy of the weapons damage stat. So a 4d7 spear would do 8d7 thrown. More testing shows that charge damage is based on the second dice of the weapons damage, so the same 4d7 weapon charges at a base rate of xd(10y) so this damage base charge roll is 4d70.

If the 1h and 2h spears are separated into thrown and !throw you can balance around both of these special attacks. Have the 1h spears have a higher x number in general and have the 2h spears have higher y numbers.

Hress charge testing: http://www.wotmudarchives.org/forum/vie ... f=4&t=2444
Hress projectile testing: http://www.wotmudarchives.org/forum/vie ... f=4&t=2413

Dimmu
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Dimmu » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:12 am

A ~25% to chance to bash(solo vs)a top end dodge set is ok, but the the person getting sat needs to take the full 2 rounds of damage - no parried hits or autowimpy flees, otherwise the risk vs reward is not worth the effort. Increased OB might help, but at best this is only a band-aid to the underlying issue with bash, being the only offensive skill that even when you're successful, you can still deal 0 damage.

Draz
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Draz » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:54 am

Gotta admit I agree with rigs points about reducing the basics and leaving rares dodge focused.

Also what characters/equipment are you thinking of for what is seen in pk. The standard is just “not” a single abs non master trolloc without strength abs a honed mid tier weapon. If I look at say my last... 30pks over 2/3 of these had 3-5+ masters abs remorts from DS alone. 21 Str plus their ob bonus plus master flag - once people zerk they’ll bash dodge at 65 and 74% depending on the weapon

I’ve had multiple friends talk about having 5+ Rares they’re playing in the last week. This stuff is available.

Adael
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Adael » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:28 am

And the standard when fighting LS is not necessarily some newly created unknown hunter :P. But that’s a baseline they can set at least.
Lot of the pk I’ve seen over the last week or two (granted I haven’t been as active because of work) has had master warriors and bonded gaidin (warriors and non warriors, masters and non-masters) - all of whom have the same/better performance of a master troll warrior or remort for bashing. Granted they’re not facing dodgers as often I reckon, but when they do they do it better.

byrg
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by byrg » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am

Dimmu wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:12 am
A ~25% to chance to bash(solo vs)a top end dodge set is ok, but the the person getting sat needs to take the full 2 rounds of damage - no parried hits or autowimpy flees, otherwise the risk vs reward is not worth the effort. Increased OB might help, but at best this is only a band-aid to the underlying issue with bash, being the only offensive skill that even when you're successful, you can still deal 0 damage.
Definitely this. Once this all goes into play if you're getting sat, you should be eating damage for those hits, and autowimpy shouldn't be a get out of jail free card.
Last edited by byrg on Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Auriona
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Auriona » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am

Adael - If what you're saying is that the current meta makes it so that no one is playing their non-masters, non-warriors, non-gaidin right now, I would agree and suggest that whatever people are fighting against this month isn't a representative indicator of the characters that people would be playing if the meta wasn't broken. Trolls will still be playing their masters.
byrg wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am
Dimmu wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:12 am
A ~25% to chance to bash(solo vs)a top end dodge set is ok, but the the person getting sat needs to take the full 2 rounds of damage - no parried hits or autowimpy flees, otherwise the risk vs reward is not worth the effort. Increased OB might help, but at best this is only a band-aid to the underlying issue with bash, being the only offensive skill that even when you're successful, you can still deal 0 damage.
Definitely this. Once this all goes into play if you're getting sat, you should be eating damage for those hits, and autowimpy shouldn't be a get out of jail free card.
Y'all do realize that you can effectively eat many more weaves now before dying and that spell points are a finite pool, right? And that horses are still very bashable? How much more advantage do y'all need at this point? Dodge is a risky and difficult playstyle that comes with it's own risks and rewards.

Carinya
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Carinya » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:39 am

You asked for feedback in 3 categories which I'll address below. One meta comment is that if you might consider publishing whatever your balance framework you're using to think about changes, or just describe what your goals are for the pk scene. If not directed otherwise I will think about balance in terms of promoting fun group fighting over "fair" 1v1s, prioritize cross race PK considerations over sameside if I have to choose between them, and seek to reward groups with good >>>in game<<< leadership and coordination over those without.

Are we missing anything?
Definitely agree that OB is the big issue. I'm sure you've thought through some of this but reading your post, I didn't see you directly address the following topics. I'm curious how you expect them to change.
  • How often do you want defensive setups to get hit in melee?
  • Does a "full parry" setup make sense in this new world of lower OB?
  • How will normal weapons play with craftable rares? Herons? Should we expect compression here as well?
  • How will master damage and OB impact results once these changes are in?
Are there unintended consequences or anything else we should consider?
  • Channelers don't play well with melee balance, and these changes don't seem likely to improve the "channie either gets lucky dodges and owns everyone or blows up spectacularly in 1 bash" quandary.
  • The weapon variety question is tough to me. Because weapons are so similar we currently have great diversification between what people choose to use. Making them too different seems likely to me to result in one dominant meta rather than maintaining diversification. Alternatively, it could push people to coordinate OOC more to ensure their group with different weapons log on together. I don't know if there is a happy middle ground between "so similar" and "too different" and haven't thought this one all the way through - just lobbing it out there for your consideration.
  • Please remember that many of us love to show off a little, and maximizing DB was a way to do this, so it will burn a little to know everyone can get the same DB after this. I'd consider using the big list of out-of-game uniques as a salve for this, even if they need to be tweaked for this new paradigm, and offering regular opportunities for players with different playstyles to earn them and keep them in circulation.
What excites you most? What least?
  • I really like that you're trying to make defense work again with a plan for avoiding the "uber dodge sitting otg buffing everyone" trap.
  • The idea of further increasing melee damage worries me - damage seems absolutely nuts right now, even taking into account stat inflation over the years, and getting hit less often but for Justice damage whenever you do doesn't seem likely to promote the kind of group pk tactics I enjoy.

byrg
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by byrg » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:48 am

Auriona wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:16 am
Y'all do realize that you can effectively eat many more weaves now before dying and that spell points are a finite pool, right? And that horses are still very bashable? How much more advantage do y'all need at this point? Dodge is a risky and difficult playstyle that comes with it's own risks and rewards.
Yet "y'all" seem to want all of the reward with none of the risk. Warrior damage reduction is changing, we know that already. If we're making it harder to bash and land hits on dodge in the first place, which is how this sounds, and we've already halved the potential damage eaten with a bash by removing attack rounds, then what's wrong with simply asking that when our bash does land, someone actually have to take some damage from it.

Frey
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Frey » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:12 pm

I won't comment on most of it because it's hard to talk to specific things without the nitty gritty details, but one thing has stood out to me, and I've thought about this in the past with the last round of weapons changes a couple years ago, etc.

On the abs weapons, the goal seems to be targeting sword/clubs/axes to be higher OB, Bash, Damage, respectively. However, I think what we'll find, and I think this happened pretty quickly after the last set of changes, is that barring oddball setups and certain crossovers in pracs (like a lblade/sblade bashy stab setup or something because of residuals), what you'll find is that people will run the numbers (myself included) to figure out what bashes the best, possibly balancing that with damage depending on if there are tons of dodgers playing vs combo or something, and everyone will end up running the top couple of weapons in that class while the others get ignored.

Today, you do occasionally see a mix of weapons. I see clubs often, some long blades, a decent number of axes, and the occasional halberd. Depending how the changes fall in place, that could change significantly toward one class if they aren't balanced closely with one another.

On the dodge topic, the main problem I have is that the point of dodge is to dodge. Not to parry. Also, as Rig said, dodge can be competitive without a perfect kit, but in today's world, it's not uncommon for an abser to have anywhere from 50-74% chance of bashing you, which is awfully high. However, in a set full of rares, (jcuffs, egown/surcoat, dbelt, medallions, what have you) it SHOULD be hard to kill. That's a ton of rares needed to make the kit top end. It shouldn't be super easy for a basic abs mounted master to sit that every other attempt. The risk vs reward in the individual sets is vastly different.

Those are my 2 cents.

Zarth
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Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Zarth » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:29 pm

I have two points.

1) ABS weapons should be balanced off what they lack and not what they have. You have 3 axis to optimize the weapons on, OB, Bash, Damage with OB and bash very closely related. From what it sounds like, you're planning to say a wapon should be good at 1 of the 3. I disagree with this as to be actually useful an abs weapon has to be reasonable at all 3. If you bash 100% but you either can't them or do low damage when you hit then the weapon is useless. Instead I think it should be that clubs/axes/lblades all have 2 of the 3 attributes pretty high, especially at the top end weapons. Ie a war maul should be great bash and damage with weaker OB. A heron great should b great ob and damage with low bash. Double axen should be great OB and Bash with weaker damage.

2) With the recent changes warriors can not take "many" more weaves. Let's say you were dealing ~30 damage with a fstrike before. It took 14 fstrikes to get through 400 hps for a kill. With the current damage mitigation it takes 16. With the future changes it will take 15. For higher damage weaves the difference gets completely lost in the noise, if you're doing average 60 damage with fball then it took 7 weaves before, it takes 8 currently and 7 with the expected changes. The warrior changes are absurd for damage that is already mitigated by abs, for anything that was missing abs it doesn't really do much.

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