War system questions

[Reyne]

The question really is between gameplay and RP boundaries. From a gameplay sense being able to instigate an attack on a threat/wanted is a valid justification to how the oaths function. However there are still limits and boundaries in the RP world the game is set in. One of those being that Tar Valon shouldn't be involved the way it is now in skirmishes between nations.

The fact is that Aes Sedai have been declanned for something as simple as telling a lie based on RP. So going against one of the core principals of the clans RP shouldn't be allowed.

On the flip side let's say that it is decided that it is allowed. Then why can they participate when we are not able to retaliate? Instead now they get to act like free agents wherever they like and are immune to any of the negatives.

Well, as was said the Tower members aren't getting qps for it either so it's not like it is no negatives and all positives.

Just today I killed 1 Aes Sedai attacking Amador and 1 RE applicant. Which was 50% of the group attacking our general and had it not count at all. This also isn't a whine about why we are losing, as I am pretty sure we are not.

They were grouped and both attacking the general? You got credit for the RE applicant though yeah? Just to clarify.

Yeah that's a legitimate grievance still... But you can't expect players to not attack you either. You're dicking with Tar Valon on the regular. You've declared war on Two Rivers and Andor, both (rp-wise at least) pretty good friends/allies with the Tower, and have attacked/killed Tower members in those nations well before any declarations of war. "Skirmishes between nations" is downplaying it a lot? You've more or less just openly declared a war that has been smoldering for quite some time already - but now with this official system and QPs being involved there arises a mechanics issue with Tower continuing to be involved

I think perhaps, barring imm changes/intervention, the way to go with this as of now would be to lean into the RP instead of saying it is dead. Meaning, negotiate something with the Tower which it will have to abide by because of the Oaths. Maybe something like "in exchange for ending incursions into Amador during this war, the Children will refrain from assaults upon Tar Valon." Then if an AS attacks you and you have a treaty from the Hall in hand you've got some leverage to do something. It was an interesting bit of RP but I'm not sure Tear summarily executing Nevirha Sedai had any real purpose to it besides escalating conflict needlessly.

[Raeza]

Then why can they participate when we are not able to retaliate? Instead now they get to act like free agents wherever they like and are immune to any of the negatives.

So the issue here is they have the best of both worlds. They get to ignore a crucial part of their identity from the books because it suits their gameplay. Yet also get to ignore the gameplay aspect of the war (winning or losing) by claiming RP from the books. Not only that it is putting those of us playing within the war rules at a disadvantage because our kills are not counting. Just today I killed 1 Aes Sedai attacking Amador and 1 RE applicant.

Again, Tower members get no direct benefit from helping allies in their war. It is correct that you cannot declare war against us in retaliation, but we also cannot declare war against you (meaning we could not possibly get, e.g., a Tower patrol near Amador or something). That part is equal. You CAN retaliate against us by warranting and killing us, but you already do this anyway. For the point about not getting credit for killing people assisting, the same is true now that you have an alliance with Tear. The RE cannot get rewards for turning in Yasmin's scalp for instance. How is it different? I just don't see this particular argument.

If you annoy half the clans on the mud and then declare war, you cannot be surprised if they line up to help your enemy. That is part of the diplomacy aspect.

[kendall]

I will go back to my original post which seems to have been skipped in your above post.
The tower does have repercussions. The *ol have been hunting them for a long time although more aggressively recently. Novices being stabbed dead during quiet periods by *ol etc. Why do you selectively say there is no repercussion for the tower partaking in helping their allies when the sole reason they are doing it is because of the actions of your clan members over the recent history.
Again, if the *ol had not been so aggressive over recent history I do not believe there would so many people rallying to aid the Red Eagles in this war. The sole reason, in my opinion, is precisely because it is against the *ol. I would not expect the same level of support if it was a war with dragon sworn or cairhien etc.
Please have a look at why people are rallying to aid Red Eagles and then maybe it will give you the answers you seek. Again repercussion for your own clan actions.
If you do not like the tower partaking then maybe you should consider your position and start a dialogue with the Red Eagles or even the Tower about ending the war you yourselves started.

[Meren]

The tower does have repercussions. The *ol have been hunting them for a long time although more aggressively recently. Novices being stabbed dead during quiet periods by *ol etc. Why do you selectively say there is no repercussion for the tower partaking in helping their allies when the sole reason they are doing it is because of the actions of your clan members over the recent history.

Everybody is well aware WHY it is happening. The point being raised is, an untouchable organisation is interfering in wars. Andor interfered, and are paying for it. Even the Black Talon have a war room, and can be held to account.

And to Raeza, the Gray award AQPs to Accepted for assisting in things like this.

[keim]

Its been going on a while now before this mechanic was introduced, and not all *oL instigated.

I do think tower should be kept out of these wars, as in not able to participate, at the very least not able to go on the attack. Tower should be neutral and be working on the back end to help whoever they want to win the fights, help with negotiations (with those that they can negotiate with anyways), mediation, and even support in giving safe ground for allies and groups, helping reequip, even heals and whatnot. A direct action should not be taken by Tower as that would basically be the same as declaring war without the whole declaration process.

Unclanneds can participate in wars apparently, if you want to be included in the war get on a clanned char that is a participant or an unclanned alt, hell even create a new alt to do it if you are so inclined. Bringing another clan into a war who cannot be retaliated against, who are the biggest clan in the game as well as the most bonused is just not really sustainable.

[Octavio]

...and even support in giving safe ground for allies and groups, helping reequip, even heals and whatnot.

So here you are saying that Tower players should be able to stand in EF, or Amador and be able to heal, armor, strengthen, and other "tower-like" things and as long that they do not attack anyone or anything they will be allowed to do this and be left alone.

Yea, let's see how that works out.

[Raeza]

And to Raeza, the Gray award AQPs to Accepted for assisting in things like this.

I'm sorry -- care to elaborate what you mean by this?

[Reyne]

Think he means the Gray forum task for AQPs.

And to Raeza, the Gray award AQPs to Accepted for assisting in things like this.

Do they though? They provide AQPs for "aid to members of organized clans." The task also clearly says it is in support of creating and maintaining peace and building relationships and that anyone found violating the spirit of the task would be disciplined.

Maybe I'm mistaken and it happened already ofc but I think you're reaching on this one.

I just feel like the imms aren't going to tell a clan they summarily can't participate in any war battles. Would be a pain in the butt to administrate/enforce that, for one thing. What would that entail - if an AS is fighting in a war battle send them the log and then they have to look at the situation and yaddayadda punish as needed etc?

You either need to make a change to the system or accept that you need to negotiate with the Tower if you want to control the actions of individual AS. Aishana Sedai says the Hall *can* declare war, just that it never really does. Well... great? So let TV have a war patty and all that and then the "the Tower doesn't go to war" RP is maintained because it won't ever actually declare war on anyone barring very extreme circumstances. Just giving the Tower the *option* to go to war doesn't mean suddenly neutrality goes into the trashcan. Then if you win a war against TV the demands have to be within reason and an imm can then be involved - no forcing all AS to publicly declare they are darkfriends, etc.

[Khahliana]

She is referring to the forum AQPs available for Accepteds for aiding individuals of organized clans. I seriously doubt any Gray would award for an Accepted assisting in a war. Seriously. There are also many restrictions on Accepted with regard to "things like this." If you're going to refer to something like this, read more carefully and make sure you actually know what you're talking about.

[Reyne]

Accepted are not even allowed to go into Amador.