America....

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Reyne
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: America....

Post by Reyne » Thu May 25, 2017 3:32 pm

faul wrote: a) I actually agree with superdelegates not making their votes public ahead of time.
Which is basically my biggest issue with the Dems so we agree there are areas they could work on or fix. That's all I really was getting at in the first place: they should examine what went wrong and if necessary make changes in their strategy.

Good job countering a point nobody firetrucking made, unless you can point out where I said they did a good job. And, weird, I wonder how a "literal reality TV star with no qualifications" ended up as a serious contender on a major ballot to begin with?
I said the Dems did a horrible job and you said "well, not really." Yeah, they did. A horrible job. They were so sure they were going to win that they didn't even campaign in states like Wisconsin (despite Bill saying "hey wtf are you guys doing?" multiple times) and basically just went with "lol if you don't vote for us you're dumb." Worked out great, now we get to deal with GOP madness for years.

It was still a close one yeah, but that's only because that's how low the damn bar was and they still tripped over it.
If only parties had some kind of control over whether or not Boaty McBoatface could become their candidate based off name recognition.
I think both parties are trash as they currently are and making the GOP more inclusive wouldn't fix anything at all. Both parties are beholden to monied interests and have turned this nation into a corporate kleptocracy while pandering to their respective bases about this or that social issue (which they rarely if ever do anything about aside from token legislation).

As little faith as I have in the general public, I have even less faith that some party officials have the public's best interests in mind and will strive to put forth the best possible candidates. Hell, if Bernie didn't run then Hillary wouldn't even had opposition except for one token dude whose name you probably don't even remember right now and who dropped out after the first debate. Were they just expecting the primaries to be a pre-victory lap? Fine Bernie sucks but why didn't we even get a decent crop of candidates to choose from this time around?

Diotima
Posts: 9
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Location: Kansas City

Re: America....

Post by Diotima » Thu May 25, 2017 3:42 pm

No, the argument is that the DNC and political leaders of the Democratic party ought to have a say in who the Democratic Party puts forward as its Presidential candidate, as a check on voters in Democratic primaries who are, for the most part, not Democrats. It is a check against demagoguery, and it is a means of assuring that the candidate that does make it on to the ticket is at least minimally capable and qualified to do the job. As far as checks go, it is admittedly a political hindrance when their opponents have no such checks, and when the Constitutional checks against such have been so thoroughly neutered as to be impotent against such threats. But it is not an anti-democratic check, it enhances and protects what pitiful democratic-ness electoral campaigns are capable of delivering.

The DNC exists to get competent democrats elected. They have a vested interest in the candidates that actually make it on to the tickets, both to ensure their competence, and to ensure their electability. It is at least as much their responsibility to prevent frauds from winning their races as it is to make sure that equally competent candidates both get the opportunity to make their case for why they should be selected. Primaries are the way they judge electability, while their candidate's histories and connections are how their competence is judged. Frankly, Bernie Sanders should never have been allowed to run as a Democrat in the first place. He has spent as much time undermining their capacity for competence and the electability of Democrats as many Republicans. It's not about ideology. Parties don't exist to promote ideologies. They exist to get their members elected. Ideologies are mere means to that end.

Democrats have been losing horribly since Reagan, with only small hiccups when the utter mendacity and malicious incompetence of conservative Republicans becomes impossible for the public to ignore any longer. This is a result of three features, none of which they have much control over. First is that their voters sequester themselves in small urban areas, diluting the impact of their voters. Winning with 80% of the vote in a district counts for as much as winning with 55%, which means that several hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Democratic vote are effectively wasted. Second is that because of first, Republicans win more state legislatures, and are able to gerrymander much more effectively and more frequently than Democrats can, exacerbating the wasted vote effect, even in those few states that Democrats control, or at least split control over. Finally, and most importantly, is the culture of conservative Republicans, cultivated by talk radio and fake news, designed to do no more than make them hate Democrats, come hell or high water. Compromise with a Democrat, for a Republican, is anathema, no matter the issue or ideology at stake, and when confronted with a political opponent who is not interested in truth, competence, or political solutions to political problems, there is nothing Democrats can do except try to hang on and survive. Eventually, Republicans, who are demographically and ideologically increasingly out of touch with the majority of American's genuine ideological views on the issues, and as such increasingly reliant on a form of gerrymandering that will backfire against them when another one of those hiccups comes along will find themselves out of power. The Republican party is far more in need of reform, both of its ideology and of its processes, if it wants to remain politically relevant in the medium-term future and if it wants to not pose an existential crisis for the USA, than the Democratic party is.

Reyne
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: America....

Post by Reyne » Thu May 25, 2017 3:48 pm

Diotima wrote: Frankly, Bernie Sanders should never have been allowed to run as a Democrat in the first place. He has spent as much time undermining their capacity for competence and the electability of Democrats as many Republicans. It's not about ideology. Parties don't exist to promote ideologies. They exist to get their members elected. Ideologies are mere means to that end.
And I'm saying this attitude is precisely why many are disgusted with the Democrats. This attitude is precisely what upsets people. And to top it off, they failed in their realpolitik.

It's precisely that people could see right through Hillary's words to the blindingly obvious realpolitik game being played which made people so distrusting of her. It's the Dems promoting LGBT on one hand while patting the Saudis on the back with the other, it's them claiming to represent the interests of the average American while being best friends with the biggest names on Wall Street, etc. They have no principles or ideological stances they will stand behind and everyone pretty much knows it now.

My team winning is all well and good but we're not just playing a ballgame here. If the only purpose of the Dems is to get Dems elected then why should anyone vote for them exactly? They're just the better of two evils? Gotta motivate people with something better than that I think.
Diotima wrote: Democrats have been losing horribly since Reagan, with only small hiccups when the utter mendacity and malicious incompetence of conservative Republicans becomes impossible for the public to ignore any longer. This is a result of three features, none of which they have much control over. First is that their voters sequester themselves in small urban areas, diluting the impact of their voters. Winning with 80% of the vote in a district counts for as much as winning with 55%, which means that several hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Democratic vote are effectively wasted. Second is that because of first, Republicans win more state legislatures, and are able to gerrymander much more effectively and more frequently than Democrats can, exacerbating the wasted vote effect, even in those few states that Democrats control, or at least split control over. Finally, and most importantly, is the culture of conservative Republicans, cultivated by talk radio and fake news, designed to do no more than make them hate Democrats, come hell or high water. Compromise with a Democrat, for a Republican, is anathema, no matter the issue or ideology at stake, and when confronted with a political opponent who is not interested in truth, competence, or political solutions to political problems, there is nothing Democrats can do except try to hang on and survive. Eventually, Republicans, who are demographically and ideologically increasingly out of touch with the majority of American's genuine ideological views on the issues, and as such increasingly reliant on a form of gerrymandering that will backfire against them when another one of those hiccups comes along will find themselves out of power. The Republican party is far more in need of reform, both of its ideology and of its processes, if it wants to remain politically relevant in the medium-term future and if it wants to not pose an existential crisis for the USA, than the Democratic party is.
I wouldn't say that they've been losing horribly since Reagan given that Bill and Obama were pretty popular presidents but yeah sure I agree with the rest of this for the most part... but if the Dems are not very successful then that gives my point that their current strategy is failing some validity.

I'm not going to give the Dems a pass for their faults because the GOP is worse though. But yeah both parties are garbage. Probably has a lot to do with ever declining voter turn out rates.

faul
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:14 am

Re: America....

Post by faul » Thu May 25, 2017 4:08 pm

Reyne wrote: I think both parties are trash as they currently are and making the GOP more inclusive wouldn't fix anything at all. Both parties are beholden to monied interests and have turned this nation into a corporate kleptocracy while pandering to their respective bases about this or that social issue (which they rarely if ever do anything about aside from token legislation).
Both parties are totally the same:

Code: Select all

MONEY IN ELECTION AND VOTING

Sets reasonable limits on the raising and spending of money by electoral candidates to influence elections (Reverse Citizens United)
	For	Against
Rep	0	42
Dem	54	0
Campaign Finance Disclosure Requirements
	For	Against
Rep	0	39
Dem	59	0
DISCLOSE Act
	For	Against
Rep	0	45
Dem	53	0
Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act
	For	Against
Rep	8	38
Dem	51	3
Repeal Taxpayer Financing of Presidential Election Campaigns
	For	Against
Rep	232	0
Dem	0	189
Backup Paper Ballots - Voting Record
	For	Against
Rep	20	170
Dem	228	0

ENVIRONMENT 

EPA Science Advisory Board Reform Act of 2013
	For	Against
Rep	225	1
Dem	4	190
Stop "the War on Coal" Act of 2012
	For	Against
Rep	214	13
Dem	19	162
Prohibit the Social Cost of Carbon in Agency Determinations
	For	Against
Rep	218	2
Dem	4	186

WAR ON TERROR 

Oversight of CIA Interrogation and Detention Amendment
	For	Against
Rep	1	52
Dem	45	1
Patriot Act Reauthorization
	For	Against
Rep	196	31
Dem	54	122
Repeal Indefinite Military Detention
	For	Against
Rep	15	214
Dem	176	16
FISA Act Reauthorization of 2008
	For	Against
Rep	188	1
Dem	105	128
FISA Reauthorization of 2012
	For	Against
Rep	227	7
Dem	74	111
House Vote to Close the Guantanamo Prison
	For	Against
Rep	2	228
Dem	172	21
Senate Vote to Close the Guantanamo Prison
	For	Against
Rep	3	32
Dem	52	3
Iraq Withdrawal Amendment
	For	Against
Rep	2	45
Dem	47	2
Time Between Troop Deployments
	For	Against
Rep	6	43
Dem	50	1
Prohibits the Use of Funds for the Transfer or Release of Individuals Detained at Guantanamo
	For	Against
Rep	44	0
Dem	9	41
Habeas Corpus for Detainees of the United States
	For	Against
Rep	5	42
Dem	50	0
Habeas Review Amendment
	For	Against
Rep	3	50
Dem	45	1
Prohibits Detention of U.S. Citizens Without Trial
	For	Against
Rep	5	42
Dem	39	12
Authorizes Further Detention After Trial During Wartime
	For	Against
Rep	38	2
Dem	9	49
Prohibits Prosecution of Enemy Combatants in Civilian Courts
	For	Against
Rep	46	2
Dem	1	49
Oversight of CIA Interrogation and Detention
	For	Against
Rep	1	52
Dem	45	1

ECONOMY/JOBS

Dodd Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Bureau Act
	For	Against
Rep	4	39
Dem	55	2
American Jobs Act of 2011 - $50 billion for infrastructure projects
	For	Against
Rep	0	48
Dem	50	2
End the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection
	For	Against
Rep	39	1
Dem	1	54
Kill Credit Default Swap Regulations
	For	Against
Rep	38	2
Dem	18	36
Revokes tax credits for businesses that move jobs overseas
	For	Against
Rep	10	32
Dem	53	1
Disapproval of President's Authority to Raise the Debt Limit
	For	Against
Rep	233	1
Dem	6	175
Disapproval of President's Authority to Raise the Debt Limit
	For	Against
Rep	42	1
Dem	2	51
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
	For	Against
Rep	3	173
Dem	247	4
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
	For	Against
Rep	4	36
Dem	57	0
Emergency Unemployment Compensation Extension
	For	Against
Rep	1	44
Dem	54	1
Reduces Funding for Food Stamps
	For	Against
Rep	33	13
Dem	0	52
Minimum Wage Fairness Act
	For	Against
Rep	1	41
Dem	53	1
Paycheck Fairness Act
	For	Against
Rep	0	40
Dem	58	1

EQUAL RIGHTS

Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2013
	For	Against
Rep	1	41
Dem	54	0
Exempts Religiously Affiliated Employers from the Prohibition on Employment Discrimination Based on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity
	For	Against
Rep	41	3
Dem	2	52
Same Sex Marriage Resolution 2006
	For	Against
Rep	6	47
Dem	42	2

FAMILY PLANNING

Teen Pregnancy Education Amendment
	For	Against
Rep	4	50
Dem	44	1
Family Planning and Teen Pregnancy Prevention
	For	Against
Rep	3	51
Dem	44	1
Protect Women's Health From Corporate Interference Act The 'anti-Hobby Lobby' bill.
	For	Against
Rep	3	42
Dem	53	1
Misc
Allow employers to penalize employees that don't submit genetic testing for health insurance (Committee vote)**
	For	Against
Rep	22	0
Dem	0	17
Prohibit the Use of Funds to Carry Out the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
	For	Against
Rep	45	0
Dem	0	52
Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Funding Amendment
	For	Against
Rep	1	41
Dem	54	0
Limits Interest Rates for Certain Federal Student Loans
	For	Against
Rep	0	46
Dem	46	6
Student Loan Affordability Act
	For	Against
Rep	0	51
Dem	45	1
Prohibiting Federal Funding of National Public Radio
	For	Against
Rep	228	7
Dem	0	185
House Vote for Net Neutrality
	For	Against
Rep	2	234
Dem	177	6
Senate Vote for Net Neutrality
	For	Against
Rep	0	46
Dem	52	0
(https://votesmart.org/)

You can complain about the influence of money and all that all you want, but there are fewer things in life more black and white than D v R voting records on all these issues. And if the influence isn't buying the votes themselves, what exactly are you complaining about?
As little faith as I have in the general public, I have even less faith that some party officials have the public's best interests in mind and will strive to put forth the best possible candidates.
Well, that's your prerogative, but that doesn't make any sense to me.
Hell, if Bernie didn't run then Hillary wouldn't even had opposition except for one token dude whose name you probably don't even remember right now.
Not sure what your point is. Clinton and Bernie have a voting record 95% the same, with Bernie more "conservative" when it comes to immigration and Clinton more "conservative" when it comes to business/banking (which would be a bigger problem with me if she wasn't so blatantly pro regulation at the same time).
Were they just expecting the primaries to be a pre-victory lap? Fine Bernie sucks but why didn't we even get a decent crop of candidates to choose from this time around?
I think Clinton and Sanders were both perfectly fine candidates both in line with progressive values, competence, and qualifications. Not my fault you got suckered into believing they were bad options. What do you want, a Barack Obama every year? Congrats to you and anybody who thinks like you on wanting to take 40 leaps forward, not settling for small steps, and ending up on your ass, 40 steps behind. And thanks for taking us with you.

Reyne
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: America....

Post by Reyne » Thu May 25, 2017 4:17 pm

I want an administration that takes concrete steps to fix the growing income disparity and will move against monopolies while investing in education and infrastructure in a meaningful way (not privatize everything).

Really I just want another TR. Maybe that's too utopian.
And thanks for taking us with you.
Hey now I voted for Hillary in the general and I'm in CA anyway. :P

faul
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:14 am

Re: America....

Post by faul » Thu May 25, 2017 4:24 pm

I know, I'm just being mean.
Reyne wrote:I want an administration that takes concrete steps to fix the growing income disparity and will move against monopolies while investing in education and infrastructure in a meaningful way (not privatize everything).
It's just a weird position to take, railing against both parties like they're both equally against those things. You can complain all you want about "the elites", but what's the point in not stepping in line because they're "only" 90% in line with your interests when the only other realistic and certain outcome is going to be 0% in line with what you want?

I also just think blaming everything on "elites" and judging all people who choose to get involved with parties and politics to eventually get to these positions is sort of lazy, but that's a different conversation.

There's also not much utopian about TR. :P He was just a capitalist in the sense that any true capitalist understands that capitalism is nothing without regulations to stop the invisible hand from jerking itself off too much.

Reyne
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Re: America....

Post by Reyne » Thu May 25, 2017 4:30 pm

That's all fair enough.

To be honest I think I'm just salty over the election still which is why I'm jumping on the Dems a bit in here.

Tolveor
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Location: Sarpsborg, Norway
Contact:

Re: America....

Post by Tolveor » Thu May 25, 2017 4:50 pm

who is TR?

Reyne
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: America....

Post by Reyne » Thu May 25, 2017 4:56 pm

Sorry I forget there's people from all over on here;

Theodore Roosevelt

Diotima
Posts: 9
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Location: Kansas City

Re: America....

Post by Diotima » Thu May 25, 2017 4:59 pm

Hillary Clinton perfectly represents the ideology of the Democratic party, which is a center-left, non-radical and non-extremist party. That ideology is represented by a basic trust in our public and private institutions, a realistic acknowledgement of where they are inadequate or inappropriate, and an incremental and procedural attitude towards the reforms necessary to achieve the desired ends our present institutions fail to achieve. That she failed to overwhelmingly defeat Trump, and that Democrats fail to overwhelmingly defeat Republicans, has everything to do with that Republican culture, which is insidious and seeps even into those on the left, and infects people with a desire for unwarranted radicalism and rhetorical extremism. Don't get me wrong, I personally think Democrats could stand to be a lot more radical on some of their policy positions. They need to be talking about returning to pre-Nixonian levels of taxation, and supporting Medicare-for-all universal single-payer health care. But their caution and reticence in adopting those positions is an inherent part of their centrism, a desire to have it proven that such radical changes to American institutions is warranted, rather than merely suspected, and I cannot fault them much for that. At least they're heading in the right direction.

People are disgusted with Democrats for no other reason than that Republicans, church leaders who've been corrupted by them, fake news and talk radio have told them to be. The rhetoric they generate is insidious and deceptive, to the degree that I even found myself being tempted into the rhetorical and logical fallacies, and the blind speculation they promoted to deceive and divide, in this last election. That you think Dems pat Saudis on the back, while it has been Democrats, when they have power, pushing back against their human rights abuses and refusing to sell them weapons, while Republicans go so far as to hide both their relationships with them, as well as conceal and deflect the Saudi's involvement with terrorist organizations, is evidence of this insidiousness. That you think being among the "biggest names on Wall Street" automatically makes one suspect, if not outright evil, is further evidence of their deceptiveness and fallaciousness insinuating itself into the thinking of an otherwise intelligent individual.

The Democratic Party exists to get Democrats elected, and to do that, they adopt ideologies and policy positions they think will be helpful and desired by their constituents. You don't vote for them just because they're Democrats. And that's, in part, why they fail so often, because that's the responsible and democratic way to do that, and because that's not how Republicans operate. The Republican Party exists solely to get Republicans elected as well, but the ideologies and policy positions they publicly support are not because they think they will be helpful or even particularly desireable by their constituents, but because they can rhetorically use those items to build an identity, and cultivate voters who will vote for Republicans for no other reason than that they are Republicans, and who will oppose Democrats for no other reason than that they are Democrats.

And I'm glad you brought up Clinton and Obama. Bill won his first term without winning the popular vote, on the heels of a Republican President who had lost the faith of his party, due to actually trying to govern responsibly and raise taxes when he was trying to prosecute a war. He won his second term as much because his first term was not a failure and due to some good economic luck, as because Republicans ended up running a dinosaur in the own party, who was almost a relic of the days when Republicans did have a modicum of political responsibility. Obama won on the heels of a disaster of a President, running against another relic of a Republican who still displayed some faith in our institutions. And because he was running as a member of the party opposing the sitting President, he was able to adopt a veneer radicalism that co-opted much of conservative culture's inculcation of radicalism, in spite of his very centrist and incrementalist tendencies. And he won again because Republicans again ran an institutionalist, and because his Presidency was a remarkable success story coming after W's debacle, in spite of many leftists feeling betrayed by the lack of a public option in the ACA, and a hawkish foreign policy. Both won in spite of ongoing losses at local and state levels for Democrats. The general trend for Democrats since Reagan has been downward because they haven't figured out a responsible way to counter Republican's insidious and irresponsible culture of political identity. But Republican's hold on power is more tenuous than the numbers would suggest, as that identity is being more and more rejected, particularly by demographics that are growing, and because people are coming to recognize that the conservative political identity is not about "small government" or "Christian values," but really about incompetence, intolerance and bullying.

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