It's probably a good thing nobody suggested pfile wipes then.
Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
I think it’s clear the only answer to this problem is a full player file wipe. Start from scratch.
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
The correct solution is simple.
Nerf pb across the board. As PB increases PK enjoyment goes down.
Compared to DB, PB is stronger in 1v1 but (much) worse once your opponent gets more or uses mobs. So this ends up with characters that are impossible to kill 1v1 but feel like dog dung once you get hit by 2 or have to hit at mobs. This makes both sides angry because it looks like the other side is behaving like a coward.
More specifically, increasing PB does 3 things that piss players off:
1) It makes defense weapons much better at bashing
2) It means your bash gets parried
3) It makes the pb user feel weak when they get 3 high ob weapons on them because their parry gets split by the ob and unbashed hits destroy them.
Balancing against PB is also much more difficult, because stays high while bashed the only way to balance against PB is to increase OB, this increase in OB makes it more likely that 3) above comes into play.
With the current defensive setups being biased towards pb this makes it very difficult to balance. Instead defensive setups should be biased towards DB. DB is trivial to balance against as you can just increase weight, this doesn't make unbashed hits more likely and doesn't kill people because of parry split.
Heavy combo should max out at 114 db, light combo should max out at 130db. Dodge should be up at like >170 DB. PB should be reduced by a similar amount. The weight on weapons should then be adjusted so that a 19 str mounted berserk warrior has ~25% chance to bash the top end dodge with a top end weapon. This low chance of landing is actually acceptable because with the reduction in PB you will actually hit them when you land a bash!
If more drastic changes are to be considered then the following should be implemented:
1) The bash cap should be set to 74% for all setups, club bonus and mounted bonus should apply before the bash cap. Generally this will make combo users and absers easier to bash
2) Autoflee should change fleelag accumulation from 1 pulse with a possibility of 2 pulses to 2 pulses with a possibility of 3 pulses
3) OB, PB, DB dependence on str and dex should be reduced. Currently, 1 point in STR gives +5 OB. Each point in OB is ~1% damage against a defense (combo/dodge) user this is on top of the extra bonus. A 21 str trolloc warrior is dealing >15% more damage than a 19 str hunter. This is why cowards like Sorvitor/Mush etc had to be carried by fades until they got rares.
4) OB bonuses for classes (warriors) and clans (warder, wolfbrother) should be reduced
5) Unlimited targeting for channelers should be removed, bash or projectile targeting is better. Max channeler hps should be increased to 320.
6) 1/2 handed weapons should be removed or at least the damage bonus should be removed
7) Str damage bonus should be halved for 1 handed weapons
8) Warrior attack should be reimplemented. The game was much better with that in place
9) Barring 8, attack should be removed from fades and warders.
Nerf pb across the board. As PB increases PK enjoyment goes down.
Compared to DB, PB is stronger in 1v1 but (much) worse once your opponent gets more or uses mobs. So this ends up with characters that are impossible to kill 1v1 but feel like dog dung once you get hit by 2 or have to hit at mobs. This makes both sides angry because it looks like the other side is behaving like a coward.
More specifically, increasing PB does 3 things that piss players off:
1) It makes defense weapons much better at bashing
2) It means your bash gets parried
3) It makes the pb user feel weak when they get 3 high ob weapons on them because their parry gets split by the ob and unbashed hits destroy them.
Balancing against PB is also much more difficult, because stays high while bashed the only way to balance against PB is to increase OB, this increase in OB makes it more likely that 3) above comes into play.
With the current defensive setups being biased towards pb this makes it very difficult to balance. Instead defensive setups should be biased towards DB. DB is trivial to balance against as you can just increase weight, this doesn't make unbashed hits more likely and doesn't kill people because of parry split.
Heavy combo should max out at 114 db, light combo should max out at 130db. Dodge should be up at like >170 DB. PB should be reduced by a similar amount. The weight on weapons should then be adjusted so that a 19 str mounted berserk warrior has ~25% chance to bash the top end dodge with a top end weapon. This low chance of landing is actually acceptable because with the reduction in PB you will actually hit them when you land a bash!
If more drastic changes are to be considered then the following should be implemented:
1) The bash cap should be set to 74% for all setups, club bonus and mounted bonus should apply before the bash cap. Generally this will make combo users and absers easier to bash
2) Autoflee should change fleelag accumulation from 1 pulse with a possibility of 2 pulses to 2 pulses with a possibility of 3 pulses
3) OB, PB, DB dependence on str and dex should be reduced. Currently, 1 point in STR gives +5 OB. Each point in OB is ~1% damage against a defense (combo/dodge) user this is on top of the extra bonus. A 21 str trolloc warrior is dealing >15% more damage than a 19 str hunter. This is why cowards like Sorvitor/Mush etc had to be carried by fades until they got rares.
4) OB bonuses for classes (warriors) and clans (warder, wolfbrother) should be reduced
5) Unlimited targeting for channelers should be removed, bash or projectile targeting is better. Max channeler hps should be increased to 320.
6) 1/2 handed weapons should be removed or at least the damage bonus should be removed
7) Str damage bonus should be halved for 1 handed weapons
8) Warrior attack should be reimplemented. The game was much better with that in place
9) Barring 8, attack should be removed from fades and warders.
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
"pfile stat wipe" is what I said - obviously I'm not talking about complete pfile wipe, I thought that important context was abundantly clear.
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
Oh no, I caught you trying to use loaded words to make it sound like something it's not the first time before just calling it a "pfile wipe" outright the second time. Don't worry, that didn't go over my head. 
At the end of the day, I think you're fully aware this is closer to the introduction of bearish stock or channie hp cap than an actual pfile wipe, so I don't know why you're saying anything but 'i want to keep my pretty stats' instead of this 'mud's gonna die if I don't get to keep my stats' nonsense.
At the end of the day, I think you're fully aware this is closer to the introduction of bearish stock or channie hp cap than an actual pfile wipe, so I don't know why you're saying anything but 'i want to keep my pretty stats' instead of this 'mud's gonna die if I don't get to keep my stats' nonsense.
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
Here’s how you fix wotmud, Zarth. Take notes.
1. Remove the ability to have more than 15 wil for SS/LS that aren’t channelers.
2. Remove the ability to have 12+ wil for trollocs and remove the ability to have 16+ wil for fades.
3. Everyone look at the weapon spreadsheet and say that abs rares are worse than combo rares again (most of the abs rares do more damage than the uniques that are in play, you’re dumb)
4. Don’t listen to anything Zarth says.
5. Trolloc moves need to be downed. Inb4 someone says that wolfbrother moves are better (hint: they’re worse)
6. Mob weapons across the board need to be downed. The reason hitting at mobs firetrucking sucks is because every single mob weapon in the game got at least one dice roll added to their damage, which is a huge jump when you’re getting hit by 2-3+ mobs at a time.
7. Overchannel should just go away, it isn’t actually a risk at all.
8. Dodge sucks, because a majority of abs weapons bash 50%+ of the time on 145 db
9. Removing parry from bash is stupid because it just makes combo unable to fight dodge.
10. Anyone who thinks that a finely axe is going to out damage without bashing against the abser bashing with an eaxe is probably stupid.
11. Rank damage needs to be looked at considering we’re seeing upwards of 8? damage just for a landed bash. That’s definitely a bug.
1. Remove the ability to have more than 15 wil for SS/LS that aren’t channelers.
2. Remove the ability to have 12+ wil for trollocs and remove the ability to have 16+ wil for fades.
3. Everyone look at the weapon spreadsheet and say that abs rares are worse than combo rares again (most of the abs rares do more damage than the uniques that are in play, you’re dumb)
4. Don’t listen to anything Zarth says.
5. Trolloc moves need to be downed. Inb4 someone says that wolfbrother moves are better (hint: they’re worse)
6. Mob weapons across the board need to be downed. The reason hitting at mobs firetrucking sucks is because every single mob weapon in the game got at least one dice roll added to their damage, which is a huge jump when you’re getting hit by 2-3+ mobs at a time.
7. Overchannel should just go away, it isn’t actually a risk at all.
8. Dodge sucks, because a majority of abs weapons bash 50%+ of the time on 145 db
9. Removing parry from bash is stupid because it just makes combo unable to fight dodge.
10. Anyone who thinks that a finely axe is going to out damage without bashing against the abser bashing with an eaxe is probably stupid.
11. Rank damage needs to be looked at considering we’re seeing upwards of 8? damage just for a landed bash. That’s definitely a bug.
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
Crap man. I'm for the idea. I'd still play if all my stats got wiped. I think other people would quit over it. Sorry you thought I was trying to be manipulative or chose my words carefully, I wasn't.reil wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:14 pmOh no, I caught you trying to use loaded words to make it sound like something it's not the first time before just calling it a "pfile wipe" outright the second time. Don't worry, that didn't go over my head.
At the end of the day, I think you're fully aware this is closer to the introduction of bearish stock or channie hp cap than an actual pfile wipe, so I don't know why you're saying anything but 'i want to keep my pretty stats' instead of this 'mud's gonna die if I don't get to keep my stats' nonsense.
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
Think this discussion just proves how hard it is to balance around min-max games!
Re: Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation
-Months ago I posted a suggestion for moving the +5% mounted bash bonus to mood ie. brave. It was widely panned which is strange to me because it answers so many of the concerns raised here. It creates an actual bashing differential between characters who are wimpy and characters who are brave. It forces characters to decrease their parry for an opportunity to increase their bash. Relevant to this thread - its less drastic than anything that has been proposed here and works within the already known confines of the game without creating a new balance paradigm. No one is getting anything that hasn't already been seen/played with. We're just moving around when you get it and creating some sacrifices. Within this thread people have said they want to see less parry on combo and a higher underlying bash rate. Boom. Its right here waiting for you to get aboard the train.
Fun thread though. A lot of the ideas proposed here were things I thought about and then found myself saying "oh".
-"Claymores have been 7d5 since like 1998". Yes, and their OB and weight have been dramatically upped since then.
-"We need to increase abs weapon damage." A lot of abs weapons do already have really high damage which is problematic for dodge. I might sometimes feel that over the history of the game combo weapons have increased in damage more relative to abs weapons. A lot of the craftable rares feel like poor-man's herons while some abs weapons seem to still fall around historic templates ie. 7d6, 8d5 abs weapons existed forever ago. I can't find the most recent docs.google page to really know if my feelings line up with reality though.
-"This gold armor seems way overpowered". Gets a set. Puts it on. Wow, I have like no dodge in this ..though my parry is still 180 wimpy.
-Rank damage coming after armor feels like how the game felt 20+ years ago when Lunda pointed out to the Imms that ward damage came after abs which was why short blade users destroyed abs for so much of the game.
-I own a crapload of razor swords, and when the Imms upped it from 6d6 to 5d8 I remember thinking - "what have I done to deserve this miracle". Razors were awesome at 6d6. Razors would have been high on my list of things that are overly favorable to combo. I was going to propose that "1 handed craftable rares should max their damage dice at the underlying non-rare dice of their class", but 1-handed axes kind of blow the whole thing up. We've come a long way from combo weapons all being 5d6.
-I will now propose a new bonus for armor characters that will be widely rejected and then embraced in the coming years. "Glancing Blow" or "Deflect". Whenever an armor character has 3 or more opponents engage on them - there is a X% chance (10-20%, add 10% per opponent, etc) that chest shots will be "deflected" for zero damage. I initially had a variety of thoughts on this like - "Absers should have an inherent 10% deflect" or "Absers should have an inherent deflect against piercing weapons". I like making it a benefit against more opponents because it makes the benefit more in line with max engage code that dodgers benefit from. You could say "this is a powerful bonus, it exceeds the warrior 1d2, a deflect could be worth a lot of hps". Yes - how many hitpoints does a dodger save when only 2 people can max engage. How many hitpoints does a comboer save when they deflect 2/3 shots in a room. Defense and absorption are just techniques for increasing total hitpoints and in some circumstances defensive characters essentially have infinite hitpoints when their defense holds up. Abs hitpoints are finite. The last thing you want to be other than bashed as a dodger is an abser who was the last to flee and has 5 people on you. This wouldn't mitigate 1v1 or 2v1, but it could provide a reduction against higher numbers. This somewhat makes it comparable to weave reduction as an idea.
-The changes to how rares are crafted essentially put abs rares out of reach for me on darkside. I could tolerate low token cost + additional gear much more easily than I could tolerate high token with no gear. Its substantially easier for me to lose an abs rare than it is a combo rare.
-And because my wife and kids still aren't home yet - here's how I'd destroy the statting system which is just a waste of time to write because it will never ever happen.
Your stats can be reset in the circle. Hunters, warriors, and rogues may have
(a) 19 - 18 - 17 - in any order without repeats
or
(b) 19 - 15 - 19
-Int and wil are fixed and like 10-12, for all races
-No more high wil characters.
-No 18% tree.
-Homeland is roleplay only
-No rank 8 stat bonus.
-Hitpoints are fixed for each con except maybe the 19 con gets a boost. No unpredictability or 40 point spreads on 17 con.
-17 con is probably like 360 hps. Anything lower makes the differential between non-channelers and channelers too low.
-Hitpoints max at 30. 31-51 is just for practices and weave reduction. Makes the game more tolerable for new players
-Not going to hypothesize about channelers but channeler Str capped at 15 for everyone to prevent channelers from using the 15% tree that opens with 16 Str and saves so many practices.
-My guess is that 19 17 18 and 18 17 19 would become the most popular combo builds resulting in substantial defensive losses. Gold armor may feel a little heavier with 17 dex instead of 19.
-These sort of stat combinations were played by people for years. There's nothing earth shattering about reverting to what we used to play.
-One of my number one feelings through the years was the feeling of not being able to keep up.
Final thoughts
-If you really want to down defensive players without using any coding - down shields. Its way quicker than individually adjusting every item...
-All of the above changes to me address something that is problematic with combo or abs. No one change will fix all of the issues. So... all of the changes probably need to be made.
Fun thread though. A lot of the ideas proposed here were things I thought about and then found myself saying "oh".
-"Claymores have been 7d5 since like 1998". Yes, and their OB and weight have been dramatically upped since then.
-"We need to increase abs weapon damage." A lot of abs weapons do already have really high damage which is problematic for dodge. I might sometimes feel that over the history of the game combo weapons have increased in damage more relative to abs weapons. A lot of the craftable rares feel like poor-man's herons while some abs weapons seem to still fall around historic templates ie. 7d6, 8d5 abs weapons existed forever ago. I can't find the most recent docs.google page to really know if my feelings line up with reality though.
-"This gold armor seems way overpowered". Gets a set. Puts it on. Wow, I have like no dodge in this ..though my parry is still 180 wimpy.
-Rank damage coming after armor feels like how the game felt 20+ years ago when Lunda pointed out to the Imms that ward damage came after abs which was why short blade users destroyed abs for so much of the game.
-I own a crapload of razor swords, and when the Imms upped it from 6d6 to 5d8 I remember thinking - "what have I done to deserve this miracle". Razors were awesome at 6d6. Razors would have been high on my list of things that are overly favorable to combo. I was going to propose that "1 handed craftable rares should max their damage dice at the underlying non-rare dice of their class", but 1-handed axes kind of blow the whole thing up. We've come a long way from combo weapons all being 5d6.
-I will now propose a new bonus for armor characters that will be widely rejected and then embraced in the coming years. "Glancing Blow" or "Deflect". Whenever an armor character has 3 or more opponents engage on them - there is a X% chance (10-20%, add 10% per opponent, etc) that chest shots will be "deflected" for zero damage. I initially had a variety of thoughts on this like - "Absers should have an inherent 10% deflect" or "Absers should have an inherent deflect against piercing weapons". I like making it a benefit against more opponents because it makes the benefit more in line with max engage code that dodgers benefit from. You could say "this is a powerful bonus, it exceeds the warrior 1d2, a deflect could be worth a lot of hps". Yes - how many hitpoints does a dodger save when only 2 people can max engage. How many hitpoints does a comboer save when they deflect 2/3 shots in a room. Defense and absorption are just techniques for increasing total hitpoints and in some circumstances defensive characters essentially have infinite hitpoints when their defense holds up. Abs hitpoints are finite. The last thing you want to be other than bashed as a dodger is an abser who was the last to flee and has 5 people on you. This wouldn't mitigate 1v1 or 2v1, but it could provide a reduction against higher numbers. This somewhat makes it comparable to weave reduction as an idea.
-The changes to how rares are crafted essentially put abs rares out of reach for me on darkside. I could tolerate low token cost + additional gear much more easily than I could tolerate high token with no gear. Its substantially easier for me to lose an abs rare than it is a combo rare.
-And because my wife and kids still aren't home yet - here's how I'd destroy the statting system which is just a waste of time to write because it will never ever happen.
Your stats can be reset in the circle. Hunters, warriors, and rogues may have
(a) 19 - 18 - 17 - in any order without repeats
or
(b) 19 - 15 - 19
-Int and wil are fixed and like 10-12, for all races
-No more high wil characters.
-No 18% tree.
-Homeland is roleplay only
-No rank 8 stat bonus.
-Hitpoints are fixed for each con except maybe the 19 con gets a boost. No unpredictability or 40 point spreads on 17 con.
-17 con is probably like 360 hps. Anything lower makes the differential between non-channelers and channelers too low.
-Hitpoints max at 30. 31-51 is just for practices and weave reduction. Makes the game more tolerable for new players
-Not going to hypothesize about channelers but channeler Str capped at 15 for everyone to prevent channelers from using the 15% tree that opens with 16 Str and saves so many practices.
-My guess is that 19 17 18 and 18 17 19 would become the most popular combo builds resulting in substantial defensive losses. Gold armor may feel a little heavier with 17 dex instead of 19.
-These sort of stat combinations were played by people for years. There's nothing earth shattering about reverting to what we used to play.
-One of my number one feelings through the years was the feeling of not being able to keep up.
Final thoughts
-If you really want to down defensive players without using any coding - down shields. Its way quicker than individually adjusting every item...
-All of the above changes to me address something that is problematic with combo or abs. No one change will fix all of the issues. So... all of the changes probably need to be made.