Re: Smob project recent changes & discussion

[Elysia]

People will always find the weakest link and there's a solid % of players who would just abuse the hell out of it. And we haven't gone into the problem of balancing AS/warder pairs and/or channelers in general yet, plus how LS centric this would be vs DS, plus a plethora of other things. The incentive would be to do it with the minimum amount of people required, so the loot doesn't have to be split. This was already happening with the better loads in the south-east. Hell, it's happening with heralds. Apparently, the "I don't like to lead big smob groups because of horses" was just an excuse.

If anything, we need more things with the mobol like Justice has, where you need x people to stand in y spots or something.

[azareth]

Yes please. Can we reimplement the removed solo stab smobs but change their rooms to look like like aylia or burly dragonsworn where they have two paths and two people stand at the split. Mobol pulls one in each direction and they have to beat a mob in a locked room to get to a tagteamable minismob?

I know: mobol. This isn’t even a super serious suggestion but more a passing fancy I wanted to share.

[Kiltwich]

People seem hyper focussed on rogue friendly things being removed, but in the meantime, melee classes have had years of not being able to do things solo and it's not unlikely that that's why the game is a rogue-fest at times. It's push and pull. Push people away from Almoth and surrounds and into the center of the map where now more things are happening and new content will be added (Alamir chain / complete x amount of minichains for a roll), so hopefully things do start happening organically if people are closer together.

Mirnavaere is also an experiment of what works for boosting melee classes and making life a bit harder for others. What the game needs is a way to balance high damage output characters such as rogues and channies against melee type characters. Ideally, it would cost rogues more hps and channies more sps, so they will need to regen too, while making things doable for warriors and hunters. We'll see whether that is in fact possible.

The ragnar-esque mobol was a fantastic way of doing something just like that. The focus really needs to be toward skills that have a timer, so you aren't just mindlessly meleeing stuff (though spamming bash could be considered the same). More interactive fights, with more thought needed helps keep things interesting are always welcome. Maybe consider stuff that would require the player to flee off and wait a round or three before coming back in to engage the target (or waiting for them to move to engage you). Though it might be time to convince Flash to add in some new tools into mobol that doesn't break everything that has come before to allow for such stuff

Mob set ups similar to Deranged Ogier and the Saldaen tunnel soldier also are exemplary. Mobs with a low-ish damage, but very high OB such that abs has the easiest time killing them, combo can do it with some trouble, and dodgers stand no chance are fantastic additions that facilitate this.

Might also be helpful to have some variance to the mini smobs, some high OB stuff that gives dodgers a lot of trouble, and some low ob high damage stuff that non-bashed dodgers can breeze through but gives combo and absers trouble (though, imho, there are a handful too many of those as is when it comes to "solo" content).

As for FC vs melee damage.... IMHO one of the main issues is that they build the chars to be defensive wet noodles. For the 16 18 14 FCs, there are the tridents that will hit a lot harder than a yew staff, and the pracs for shield parry could instead be put into bash. for 15 str, R&G spears or 2h non-sungwood staves that can do similar stuff.
The players refusing to look at set ups outside of their 350 defense 13% abs set ups with a yew staff should not be a key consideration in why more no-channel and wider no-element impacts aren't looked at IMHO. The one trick pony that has no ability to do anything else shouldn't be catered specifically catered to, especially when there are other options. the 14 str pre-rolleds might have some trouble, but there are a number of smobs that are already soloable with weaves in existance currently, it's the other folks that could use a bone as has been mentioned.

There's something to be said to allow the conjure staff spell to last its full duration, even in stedding areas and no-channels, but I have some negative feelings about giving the most defensive weapon type the option for the strongest melee damage weapon...

If anything, we need more things with the mobol like Justice has, where you need x people to stand in y spots or something.

puzzles are always fun! Just as long as they don't reset/change every time somebody looks at it...
Likewise, things like TAR that incentivize for groups of a certain size/composition, so it's not "everybody dog pile on one side and into one group" -- when the only folks who have a chance of doing something to that sort of group are stabbers, we sort of end up back in square 1.

[Elysia]

Might also be helpful to have some variance to the mini smobs, some high OB stuff that gives dodgers a lot of trouble, and some low ob high damage stuff that non-bashed dodgers can breeze through but gives combo and absers trouble (though, imho, there are a handful too many of those as is when it comes to "solo" content).

I'm trying that. Some mobs are relatively high db, which will give some classes a harder time than others.

[Kitiara]

As for FC vs melee damage.... IMHO one of the main issues is that they build the chars to be defensive wet noodles. For the 16 18 14 FCs, there are the tridents that will hit a lot harder than a yew staff, and the pracs for shield parry could instead be put into bash. for 15 str, R&G spears or 2h non-sungwood staves that can do similar stuff.
The players refusing to look at set ups outside of their 350 defense 13% abs set ups with a yew staff should not be a key consideration in why more no-channel and wider no-element impacts aren't looked at IMHO. The one trick pony that has no ability to do anything else shouldn't be catered specifically catered to, especially when there are other options. the 14 str pre-rolleds might have some trouble, but there are a number of smobs that are already soloable with weaves in existance currently, it's the other folks that could use a bone as has been mentioned.

There's something to be said to allow the conjure staff spell to last its full duration, even in stedding areas and no-channels, but I have some negative feelings about giving the most defensive weapon type the option for the strongest melee damage weapon...

I hate yew and shield... it sucks and its boring... but with 280 hps... 1 bash can easily take Kitiara to beat, 2 bashes and Im dead. I could wear combo... and survive 3-4 bashes... maybe?... but I dont see anyone?? running combo on channelers anymore after all the eq changes.

I understand that capping hp helped bring channelers 'closer' to balance... but I think with all the eq changes we have had the last few years it might be worth reexamining the cap... maybe don't remove it, but upping it a bit so that channelers can experiment with other builds without instant ripping would be nice. The tough thing is there are some really elite pkers who use channelers REALLY effectively... but for us normies... the 280 cap means get as much dodge and parry as possible, because you are 1-2 bashes from dead at any time.

Im not trying to derail the thread into a conversation about the hp cap again... But I did want to point out that changes over the last few years have led to channelers all running the 'wet noodle' same setup... When combo was viable, Kit ran around in combo and a medium nimble blade and had a great time... it wasnt as good at defense, but I felt like I could contribute even if I was tapped or in a no channel room and the combo held up well enough that I felt safe enough to stick around and fight when I wounded....

Smob wise, even when I ran yew and shield I would try to switch to an onyx staff for smobbing so I actually did some dmg.

[Florry]

This is just an idea I've had in the back of my head for awhile, and I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned before but I'll be surprised if it hasn't behind closed doors.

I'm going to choose Andor for this hypothetical, but it could likely work for any nation. Have an individual mob in Caemlyn's inner-palace that offers bounties for deadly individuals - maybe a retired thiefbane or something similar. A conspicuously well-dressed man in the service of the Queen, even. Perhaps the targets are things that change daily depending on the herald list, or they're just static smobs that don't get hit as often like the dreadlord in GF (used be a lich, right?), Smitty, Belroi, Zamora Khel, DWC, Kreeza, Orma. You kill'm, turn in the scalp to the guy and he either pays you gold or.. gives you a coin of some type (maybe some old coin from one of the numerous fallen nations) depending on your choice. The type of coin or the amount of gold varies depending on the difficulty of the scalp turned in or the quantity of scalps you turn in (thus giving the chance to up those smobs!)

You take that coin to a select location on the map, and turn it in to a mob. That mob then takes the coin, checks it for authenticity, and tells you about a rumor there's a cache of goods in x place, or they saw treasure in a ruin here, etc. You show up, and it's a smob in a place it's not supposed to be but it's way harder. (Think like how Aylia will come out of her lair to attack the trolloc camp east of lugard when you do that specific quest!) Maybe it's one of those smobs from IoMM.

The smob has the best load (per imm discretion) for it or has something nice enough to make you wanna hit it.

Just a thought rattling around in my old head.

[Taziar]

Just like the seanchan example of being impaient and logging off, there needs to be worth while SOLO content for people to do. Without it, you get the same effect, log in and not enough to get a SMOB group. Log out because can't play solo anymore.

Anything that keeps players online is worth it.

Any reason for them to just log off needs to be looked at.

Player numbers > anything else

[Kitiara]

The common theme I keep seeing for what players want when smobbing... (or maybe im projecting, please tell me if I am)

Players want methods to achieve higher reliability good items. They dont want it to be easy, I think most of us agree we want it to be difficult.

More things like TAR. Florrys idea is similar to my idea about smob tokens. (though florrys idea sounds like a lot more mobol than my idea)

Give players incentives to hit more smobs, to stick around. Give players reasons to stay on the Mud after half their smob group has to log off. Give players who have more time to play, incentive to stick around and make a new smob group and go hit other stuff.

Right now the two most active smob chains are Heralds, and TAR... one is guaranteed qps, the other is a higher than normal % chance at a top end item. But when heralds have been run, and TAR has been wiped (with or without a TAR visit)... then until those things repop there isnt anything worth hitting for most of us

Anything that keeps players online is worth it.

Any reason for them to just log off needs to be looked at.

Player numbers > anything else

This... this to me should be the highest priority. I know the immortals really want to promote diversity... They dont want Tower and Dsworn groups of old excluding everyone and just doing all the things... BUT those Tower and Dsworn groups are players playing the game. And if we want another 5-10 years out of this addiction then giving players incentives to stay logged on and doing things needs to be rewarded.

Again... common theme I keep seeing... Reward players for playing, because otherwise they will just log off. PK isnt always available, and for any established player the majority of smobs are a waste of time.

[Feneon]

Quick update: I haven't had as much time as I intended to work on the smobbing changes, but Ely has helped with some of the first steps. I’m planning to carve out time tomorrow to push things forward.

When we share intentions about upcoming changes, we want to be transparent.

I also recognize that sometimes these posts open broader frustrations about the game. That’s natural — this game is old, and it runs on the energy players and staff bring to it.

Here's where I want to be clear:

• Yes, smobbing is tilted right now toward solo play, especially for rogues and channelers.
• Yes, warriors and hunters get punished more for playing alone.
• Yes, we need to shift incentives if we want a game that grows and retains players.

Right now, the easiest way to play the game is alone.
You can log on a stabber and run a full loop collecting potions, herbs, and gear without needing anyone. You can solo most smobs as a channeler if you manage aggro well and use a reliable tic-timer.

Meanwhile, trying to solo smobs like Brute near Amador or Maegor on a hunter/warrior?
It’s miserable. It’s 15-20 minutes of work for what a thief can do in 1-2. And that's assuming perfect gear and prep. All of which will degrade substantially more (and matter more than it matters for a thief in full abs that won't use that gear competitively). Most players won’t choose frustration if there's an easier solo path, and you can’t blame them.

The problem is: when 4 rogues log on and 4 people want to do something...
...the group content falls apart. Or when something happens, and 4 rogues show up, the experience is worse for teammates and enemies. The opportunities to play together disappear in the need to wait 5 minutes to a relevant character, when we're all pressed for time anyway.

The goal of these changes is simple:

Make grouping more rewarding, and especially in a certain time frame.

Make diverse groups more natural, not mandatory.

Make it more fun to show up together, not just more work.

The value of an abser in experience combined with Aureus' reroll rework should lead to more diverse group set ups naturally at this point and here's hoping to carry that momentum.

A quick note on Staff work:

I recognize that posting updates can sometimes feel like tossing meat into a shark tank.

There’s always more we could do. There’s always a better idea. And a lot of the best ideas come from players who care.

If you’re passionate about a direction, think about how you can lean in.

Apply for Immortal, organize groups, or bring your ideas in a way that builds momentum.

Otherwise, trust that the people working on the game are trying to make it better — even if we can’t fix everything at once. And if we get things wrong.

[Taziar]

Sounds good.

Two points:

I have practiced stab on all classes and they all can perform the same in that you can ABS stab with them all. It isn't a class thing.

My immortal got deleted, so not all of us that want to help can help.
All I can do is be one more number on the who list, even if 99% of the time I play solo.