Are players leaving?

[tekela]

Harun the point of this thread isn’t for you to tell people how they should think but rather to hear what the community is currently feeling and thinking. Sometimes it’s good to not say anything and just listen.

Is the implication here that Harun's not a part of the community and we can't hear what he is currently feeling and thinking?

[Draz]

So reading this and thinking; I really think there's just been a lot of horrible timing and sometimes just not great feelings about the way things have been approached. Don't get me wrong I love Vampa's approach so much more than previous staff, and I think he's hugely overloaded, but there seems to be a huge disparity between where staff are at and others.

Both Lancers and Cav had fiascos where imms stepped in - and those who had been extremely heavily involved with building that clans..basically checked out. Defenders had a large push and 2-3 active leaders - and there was a fiasco where imms stepped in,.. and those leaders basically checked out. I recently had a fuckup (entirely my fault) on an alt where imms stepped in (admittedly had so much as a single player made a comment about any doubts previous this wouldn't have come about).. and the result for me there is demanding more of someone whose said they don't have time's time, to fulfil obligations for the clan. We went from having 6 active potential clannees and 2-3 active clan members - to at most a couple semi active,.. and frankly when am I going to feel any level of engagement to play that character? in 6 months when a punishment wears off. Same as on Draz I got punished in a way I thought was unfair (I no longer even remember if this instance was something I benefited from in any way), and took a break during the punishment, I gained a whole lot IRL and.. had more than a few people telling me that clans were losing people or newbies didn't have people giving them guidance. A couple of imms I think have been really engaged with trying to help and work with the playerbase, and then found they get overridden.

I really think for the most part if a clan 'is' managing themselves and have a council - get them to manage themselves. Maybe do it in such a way as to say this isn't a slap on the wrist affair, and what you would like to see.. but just stepping in takes away from this concept.

Likewise I think when 'removing' things making them a harder 'choice' has huge advantages.
Warrior attack is an issue when every warrior has clan pracs and 90% (or 98%) attack prac'd. Remove prerolled stats in attack and that goes away. Increase troll warrior pracs to 6 pracs rather than 3 and that goes away. Its still possible to get 90% attack, but you won't afford notice.

R8 where - a lot of people don't like or think its RPish but its something people worked towards in a big way for years. Why remove it when instead you could give people a choice (make r8 where take both ticks of whatever r8 bonuses you get.. and the people who still want it are going to take it,..but they're not gonna have +hps or master weapons or whatever else. Or implement it on the horses where R8 can use the horse option one but have some kind of drawback.

I had a conversation with Vampa a few years ago where he mentioned how there 'are' still actual secrets on WoTmud and its a good thing, and I agree. There are a ton of fantastic things in this game, and finding them out, is amazing.

[Meren]

I achieved my goals bar one. And that one would require me to adjust my play time to EST, or be more active than I'm willing to be right now, having gotten back into full-time work.

I still answer questions I see in the Discord, and will still always help people with pracs, scripts, doublelines, whatever, if asked.

[Prykor]

Been busy for a few days but wanted to get back to something to demonstrate what I'm talking about. I suggested that players complaining about Wolfbrothers are largely creating an atmosphere of resentment without actually making any balance arguments.

It's impossible to have a balanced view of things when one side has super secret bonuses and everybody else isn't allowed to know about them other than a general sense of "those chars have extra bonuses that make them stronger in PK" with no specifics.

To reiterate what others have said, on many occasions even over the last few months alone: make all bonuses (and penalties) public for all clans.
The catch-22 that you provide is "you don't know what the bonuses are so you aren't allowed to complain about them" in spite of those folks literally being on the receiving end of those bonuses straight up destroying almost any DS char in nearly all of 1v1 scenarios in spite of what those DS chars pracs and equip set up is. I'll defer to the fantastic (though long and mostly unedited) log that Scrat posted to illustrate this. Fades are strongly bonuses characters, with real penalties on death and reduced scalp rewards to further balance against that. Gaiden actually have to abide by RP restrictions, and it takes another character with further RP restrictions in order for the Gaiden to use all of those bonuses.

And for Wolfbrothers? who knows, we aren't allowed to know exactly, and just seeing the PK bonus side without any of the other sides to it makes the situation stupid.

The insinuation is that WB have more OB than other people. That's false. Within the last year or 2, WB OB was increased to be on par with trollocs and mounted humans. In other words, for most of the mud's existence WB have had lower OB ceilings than everyone else. Even after the change, trollocs still have a higher OB ceiling because they can have up to 21 STR. And surely if he meant Gaidin (which largely don't practice attacking weapons) then he would have just said that. That's the kind of statement that just breeds resentment. It would be kind to call it misleading.

I'd argue your statement is in bad faith misleading. Trolls have severe prac total restrictions to compensate for that dismounted strength, and humans have a combination of prac needs (esp. with being able to bash on horseback), mob needs (with additional EQ for those mobs), defensive penalties, and room restrictions in order to get to that OB bonus.

What balance factors do WBs have to compensate for that OB? Are they just supposed to be EVEN MORE bonused than they already were for no reason in particular?

Anyhow, something else I wanted to do was respond to how people think about bonuses. It's never fun to lose bonuses, and there's a lot of resentment about bonuses being nerfed or taken away because "I earned that." My sense is that's the wrong way to think about it. If I get 1000 qps, I haven't earned moblead and postures, I've earned whatever master bonuses are. If I complete the fade reqs, I haven't earned mounted ranger sneak and moblead all over the map, I've earned whatever fade bonuses are. In other words, it's fine to be upset about changes but we have to think about the game as a whole and balance as a whole.

Finally something I agree with -- this should always be the mentality. This game is, at its base, a PK centric game, which means fairness and balance are supremely important to the health of the game. Nobody enjoys losing, and the penalties for losing are quite harsh (this has lessened a lot over the years -- in a good way). There is a huge amount of complexity between 1v1, 2v2, and large group v large group where there are several overlapping sets of game mechanics in play that change the balance factors involved. Not every change will have the desired effect, or may over-turn the dial to go from over performing to underperforming, but the discussion should always come from the larger picture of playing the character/playstyle and playing against the character/playstyle, how the character/playstyle compares to others with skill and prac needs, and the like.

There isn't something inherently wrong with having a strongly bonused character, but when there are multiple sets of bonused characters and they aren't treated by the same rules, it creates a situation that I would compare to playing blackjack where everybody has their called cards face up and then there's the guy with the cards face down. And when the guy seems to have a disproportional amount of wins, and when they declare a 'win' the cards are never revealed -- which makes things seem fishy for everybody else. We have certain secret groups playing by different sets of rules. Gaiden, Fades, etc. get balance passes and toned down publicly, and WBs assumedly stay just as strong (or based on what you posted....get stronger) because nothing publicly is said.
Are they OP? Are they not? Were they OP before X change and now they are mostly ok? it's hard to say...as I mentioned a few paragraphs above, but their special treatment with special rules that differ from the rules that everybody else has to play by sets up a situation where there is an inherent sense of implied unfairness -- which then gets exacerbated by player feelings (especially when they lose to the bonused character) and further made worse through "toxicity" of the community (I use quotes as the community, especially on LS back 10 or so years ago, has gotten significantly better and less toxic than what I remember it being back in the day, and I'll expand on this below).

Now that I've been baited into responding in this thread...i might as well get back to the main topic and discuss community, because that is the heart of this game, and really what makes people decide to either join, stay within, or leave. And I'll start with my own experience about 17ish years ago, as a then 16 year old looking for a fantasy PvP centric game that didn't involve subscription fees when I first started, and using the web based telnet client that used to be part of the site.
As a zero-experience player, I followed the log-in advice of the login screen and made a LS hunter. After flailing around helplessly for several hours near caemlyn, a kind soul explained to me stats, their importance, by far most importanly the "listen all" command because most of the questions I was yelling would almost certainly not be answered by the afk folks in Caemlyn. I later learned how to tell trollocs apart from seanchan -- "color complete". Fast forward to the early-mid lv 20's era...and smobbing.
Spending 3 hours with a smob group for 100% of the gear to go to clan chests and alts, with nothing coming to my char followed up with "you got xp. be glad we allowed you to come along". Assuming the group leader didn't look at me and say I wasn't geared well enough to smob. It was a very bad experience. Then comes along the corpse of a mob in caemlyn...with an angereal in the corpse and my newbie curiousity asking about it in chat -- followed by being demanded to turn it into the tower, followed by a QG stabbing me to CoL (note that I was not the one who killed the mob) and warranting me, followed then by the tower warranting me for not turning in the item (while still waiting out the 15 min timer in CoL). The tower person never responded to tells, pretty sure I was ignored. After discussing with the QG, he said he didn't believe me about murdering the mob, but would allow a pardon if I turned myself in -- by that he meant coming down to Caemy and letting him stab me to death again, followed by telling me he changed his mind. I was an easy source torn bit of 1 qp easy kill, and this experience killed any hope of my newbie skills and knowledge able to do anything with the char.
After a few days of that crap and getting to very line before quitting the mud, another kind soul talking to me in CoL recommended that I go stat a rammshorned abs trolloc, 18 18, and try out DS -- the experienced players only piece was a lie and that I would have a much better community to play with. They were absolutely right and the only reason I stayed around. If I remembered the names of those kind souls, I would absolutely throw their names out for being awesome folks.

Due to hardships with college, finding a job, etc, what was initially suposed to be a bit of a hiatus ended up taking about a decade later. The WoT TV show gave me a reminder to check in on this place. I absolutely have to say: the LS community has gotten so much better -- Lots of additional helpful folks, lots more inclusive and helpful folks, and a lot more respectful treatment across the board. It may be a smaller community now than it was back with 80+ on the LS who list alone and random 2x enabled due to breaking 100 concurrent LS+DS+SS player numbers, but I am quite happy to see that it is a much better community overall. DS community is still awesome, just as I remembered. Perhaps a few too many remorts with fades being more comon place than clanned trolls at times, but the heart of that smaller community hasn't really changed.

A better community is more important than a bigger community, that said the two are not mutually exclusive. There are a number of the game's RP backbone that almost inherently set up several of the balance and fairness aspects of the community discussions into an "us vs them" with one side having a full picture of the situation vice everybody else that is only allowed to see a portion of it that will bring out the worst in the individuals (while the wolfbro's are the most obvious example due to them being around most numerously and more obviously bonused, the same argument applies to all secret clans).

(edit for clarity, grammar, and a general edit pass on a few areas)

[Callesa]

I would like to add that some of the changes are great, a lot of the things change for the better, they just often don't address the most important problems, or they add to them. If a new PvE feature is created primarily with inciting more PK on mind, it doesn't really help. If a new cool thing has a too low benefit/risk ratio, it doesn't change much.

For example: The practice trainer exp is an awesome feature. But with the usual LS wholist that I've described, it is mostly an easy bait. And it doesn't solve the issue that there should be a better benefit/risk ratio for a highbie taking a newbie/lowbie/midbie to the most common exp zones and showing them the ropes while exping together. Right now, this (what should be one of the basic activities, a learning opportunity, and social glue) is getting rather rare, as it's the slowest way to exp, while being one of the easiest ways to get found and killed.

I love the addition of the possibility to buy a normal good eq kit, and also the starting kit after death. But it doesn't solve the problem that it is often far too hard to gather a small group of average or newer players and smob in a way that would be rich enough in variety and also rewarding in eq.

And yes, I agree with the sentiment that the balance of "too good" features should sometimes be done by upping the rest, not by taking away. Harun might logically make sense about "you've earned whatever the bonuses happen to be at the moment", but that's simply not how human brains work. Not in something so time and effort demanding like r7 or r8 in just a game. If we want people to keep playing, we need to not discourage playing higher ranked alts. And to do that, we cannot hope to motivate anyone like "well, if I regularly put in the effort for two years, I might get some bonus! It won't be the fun thing I see everyone around enjoying right now, but perhaps it might still be nice!".

Also, some of the nerfs look like punishment for people actually using the feature the correct way and having fun. For example Erulisse fully earned her r8, she smobbed like crazy, she's one of the Smob Masters of the mud. So, her fun and success have lead to destruction of Heralds (but now they seem to be being changed back! Thanks!). Alison and a few other Sedai and their Gaidin were having lots of fun duo smobbing. So, the bond bonuses and features were changed, and now it is horrible (actually worse than just random two people trying to duo smob, from what we've tried with Ciegon). Viva put in tons of time and effort and ranked awesomely, so the qps rewards were downed. That's not too encouraging. Like "if I have too much fun with this, it will be changed".

And as to r7 not geting qps from some activities: why? who cares, if someone gets "pk useable rank bonuses" through PvE, they will keep using them in PvE, no harm done to absolutely anybody.

The r8 where removal was definitely one of the unfortunate discouraging nerfs. I agree with Draz, that it should be one of the things that are possible to have, but instead of other cool bonuses.

[Harun]

I'd argue your statement is in bad faith misleading. Trolls have severe prac total restrictions to compensate for that dismounted strength, and humans have a combination of prac needs (esp. with being able to bash on horseback), mob needs (with additional EQ for those mobs), defensive penalties, and room restrictions in order to get to that OB bonus.

What balance factors do WBs have to compensate for that OB? Are they just supposed to be EVEN MORE bonused than they already were for no reason in particular?

Sure. I think it's fair to say that Wolfbrothers (and humans in general) have a higher average floor and a lower maximum ceiling. My post is really conflating two different points. In terms of what trollocs are dealing with, I'm not bashing you better than my other LS hunters are bashing you (worse than my Gaidin certainly). I don't have higher DB than other dismounted LS dodgers (probably lower than most since I'm weighed from a sword rather than using sblades.) I am bashing better than my Lancer master if he was also dismounted. I have higher DB than those other dodgers when they're mounted. Which is just another way of saying that Wolfbrothers are bonused, but not in a way that's out of line with other max stats on the same side. So the OB bump is a bonus, but it's a bonus that brings us in line with stattable characters on both sides. And, it's a bonus that's available to an entire stattable race (trollocs.) Some of the more particular reason is to make bash setups more viable for WB relative to stab setups. That's why you'll also see us running around in abs now, when until three weeks ago there were coded disincentives for doing so.

Part of the irony for me is that all the recent complaining about WB has come at the time when WB are far more killable than they've ever been. When I first clanned 8 years ago, there was just no chance that a non-master trolloc could go toe to toe with me. Changes to gear, postures, moves, and damage have really changed that - which is good. Anyone in this game should have a shot at killing anyone else in this game.

[zankou]

I think the complaining about wbs came to fruition when they started running around in big groups just running circles around everyone else, while yelling and insulting and generally being jerks to the “slow and less competent “ enemy. I’ve played for a long time and never cared that wbs were heavily bonused. I still don’t. The attitude that “were better than you so were going to insult you” is what I’ve had main issue with. That and when I was running thru the horrible remort tasks, I’d ask for a group for things and someone with a wb alt would immediately log off, then a group of wbs would hit me and my group on that task. Just a bad taste in my mouth with certain wbs. Water under the bridge.

[zankou]

That said, I’m hardly an innocent victim. I’ve been involved in the toxicity and for that I apologize to the player base.

[jafra]

If I'm being candid it was probably the Dragonsworn changes and pending MC changes that caused my break with the mud.

I see this as pretty similar to all the other posts about large changes in game mechanics or policy that disproportionately affect a favorite character / class. Perhaps these changes will ultimately benefit the game, but for me it took away an option of playstyle and RP that I enjoyed most. I have not been able get as enthused about playing other classes, etc.

On a positive or funny note related to WotMud: I discovered that Adael and I are practically family. His aunt and my aunt are one and the same, we are just on opposite sides of the family. Probably have bumped into him at family gatherings at my aunt's place and not realized it. I find these odds kind of amazing, I did not have any clue who Adael was when I started playing WotMud.

[Aureus]

Wow that’s wild!