Channeler Stats

[faul]

I've always been of the mind to take or leave adjustments to targeting; I don't have a problem with channelers having nice offense and free targeting is a cool class mechanic. The only targeting thing that needs to be addressed is some sort of max engage where multiple channelers can't just completely smoke one guy in the same round; that way, targeting changes don't disproportionately hurt channelers who try to actually fight outnumbered. My dream scenario used to be couple of pulses after a damage weave lands where another damage weave can't land.

Borderline disingenuous to say 250 hps is the same as 300+ (more often 315+ as of 2-3 years ago) hps on a channeler. It makes a vast difference unless said channie is dumb enough to play dodge. Cannons are fine, they just need to be made of glass.

[Reyne]

Part of the problem fighting channies is a lot of people are crappy at it. They just sit in the room and eat weaves. They go mobs instead of no channels etc..

Yeah I feel like there's a lot to be said for this. Obviously if you aren't a channeler you can't see the weaves but odds are if you're just sitting there engaged in melee eating fireballs then you're doing it wrong.

multiple channelers can't just completely smoke one guy in the same round

See as to that I feel like you need to just not stay still. If you leave the room before the weaves are complete then you're fine but many people will just eat the weaves. For reference my con is 11 (211 hp) so I get smoked quick but for whatever reason 90% of the time PvPing (granted I don't PvP a WHOLE lot but still) people are happy to melee with the warriors while I stand there ice spiking them over and over.

I think you're on to something though; it's not really that the damage output is high, it's that the cannons aren't glass-y enough. I think adjusting the stat caps might be a better idea versus nerfing damage output - imo the fundamental problem here is that people can and will just stat until they have near perfect stats and as time goes on there are more of those characters than not. I know there are some channies running around with stats that would be more than playable for a warrior/hunter, then throw channeling in on top of that and yeah no wonder it can be brutal fighting them. 13 str is too low though imo. Maybe like 16 str and 14 con.

I don't think you should give up when there is a channie group but just think about employing better strategy instead. Hit a few times then flee. Hit the stragglers instead of engaging with the main group. Run if the others show up. Try to lead the enemy after you while leaving a rogue or two behind so they can come around behind and set up backstabs when people flee off the main engagement (I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often). Even if you don't kill anyone you're wasting our SPs for when you actually do stand your ground. I'm not super good at PvP yet so your mileage will vary on this but I know that if it's a decent size battle and the spam is going strong I'm often unable to tell whether or not my weaves are even landing until I see "your target is no longer here!"

This kind of hit and run maneuvering will also negate the effectiveness of WVD, as it doesn't last more than a few tics.

Projectiles like throwing spikes will interrupt channeling, are harder to dodge, and can totally wreck a channie's day even 1v1. Forkroot is a thing that exists!

e: I get that it's frustrating basically being killed in a round (although welcome to how rogues backstab me!) but on the other hand if there are multiple channelers there and you give them enough time to all fireball you then you dying seems to be working as intended. Lorewise the best warrior is going to have issues with the weakest channelers and a whole group of them *should* be able to smoke an unprepared/outnumbered enemy. I understand that lore takes a wayside when it comes to gameplay mechanics/fun but consider that it would be total BS if a strong warrior was able to kill a group of Accepted 1-2 at a time while the rest basically had to wait their turn to use damage weaves. For this reason, if channelers are OP, I think a stat cap adjustment would be a better way to go versus weaving mechanic changes.

[Paigey]

I think something should be clarified - what do people mean when they say "like projectiles". I always suspected a variety designed to keep channelers off of people they aren't engaged on. ie.
(1) when you are engaged you can weave on the person you are fighting
(2) you can target anyone when you are unengaged

Would basically end a channeler finishing anyone off as long as there are others to engage them or mobs about. Would make it very difficult for a channeler to defend themself from another channeler + a friend. The friend engages first - the solo channeler can't attempt to weave to keep the other channeler off them.

Maybe you mean "exactly like projectiles" and to that I say - ugh. Projectiles can only be thrown at people you are directly buffing ie. you can't throw them at someone who is engaged while you are disengaged and you can't throw them at someone you are fighting, but someone else is buffing.

[Hope]

I would be absolutely ok with the stat caps wept suggested...if channeler pracs are reviewed and altered considerably.

[Treach]

1) Put a max engage check on abilities/weaves when starting a timer, for the check make weaves count as a 3 handed weapon.
2) Change projectiles targeting to be similar to weave targeting.
3) Change borderland fc stat caps to Illian/tarabon/TR caps. Give current borderland fcs a mandatory copper chit.
4) Give unclanned fc a hot weather weave.

A few ideas I am throwing out there. Probably needs more research, but I think would be a good place to start. If channies are still overbearing then I would be in favor of reducing sps cost and damage rather than reducing stats to 13/18/13 etc.

Max engage check would prevent multiple channies starting a weave on some one and ignoring max engage. Also I think max engage counts 1 handed and 2 handed weapons differently, if possible make a weave count as 3 handed weapon. This could be a huge nerf on low engage rooms. It also makes rp sense, noone wants to fight in a crowded manner with someone throwing fireballs around.

Changing projectiles to be like weave targeting. This could be a huge nerf to fcs for a prepared opponent. If 1 opponent in the room has throwing spikes then they can target the fc and interrupt weaves.

Superstatted borderland channies are silly. Also dreadlords with similar stats should be given the same treatment.

GIve wilder fc a weave to use in blight other than zing.

[Ragyn]

Would be nice to see some kind of coding to multiple channelers weaving same target, maybe something akin to 2nd weave doing 50% of 1st weave, 3rd weave doing 50% of the 2nd weave. Ie. first spike does 80, second 40, third 20. Maybe something like "weave reduction" 1 round after having been weaved, could either be all weaves or just for one weave, ie if you get spiked you can't get spiked again but you can get fireballed. But I guess if we have coding power such as that its probably better to just fix it up completely. My idea would add some dynamic, but I guess it won't take long for people to coordinate smoothly enough when to spike/fball leaving the "fix" broken.

Would be against seeing channeler targetting being removed or altered to projectiles. Imo what makes channelers interesting to PK with and against is that they are dynamic and can deal damage to people they aren't engaged on, requiring more thought on both sides on how to use/counter.

We had a huge discussion on channelers many years ago, I'm still in favour of capping channelers at 13 con/250 hps max, maybe leave dreadlords capped at 14con as their only bonus. The str. I'm not too concerned about, wouldn't be in favour of capping it, since more str leaves for some funky playstyles, unless we just want everyone to be 1h staff again.

The biggest issue I've had with channelers is just that HPs have gone up and up and up. Now the avg. male DL(since females are still capped! this is 2017, gender equality dammit!) is a 16 con 350ish hp beast and Fcs on LS are running around with 15 con 310+hps or have changed to borderlands and gotten some silly 16 con. If HPs were capped I think it would go a long way to fixing the problem, actually making channelers glass cannons again, ie a bash with a 2-3 on you even in combo would set you back a fair bit, removol of selfcastable wvd would also help with this.

[Rig]

I have suggested before perhaps making some rooms no fire weaves/no water weaves like they are down south. It's pretty great. Also +1 to removal of borderland channies. Pking a channie that is 18 19 19 17 16 with 340 hp is stupid. Gimme the 14 con, 240 hp max.

[Saif]

14 con gives close to 300 hps with decent rolls though.

[Naerin]

I have suggested before perhaps making some rooms no fire weaves/no water weaves like they are down south. It's pretty great. Also +1 to removal of borderland channies. Pking a channie that is 18 19 19 17 16 with 340 hp is stupid. Gimme the 14 con, 240 hp max.

What benefit do you think they'd have that you don't already have? The nofire/nowater rooms are important down south because very little PK happens in zones with any sort of anti-channie anything (options pretty much start and end with Yandar, no one's pking AD if they can help it). Up north there's 1s x, fade mobs that can poison and will aggro channies specifically (fairly sure on that last part, someone check me), and a slightly-more-neutral stedding. I tend to see the problem more towards an unwillingness to use the spots provided (weirdly, the usual regroup point from 1s x is blight, when I just get superpowered fireballs from being there..) than a lack of options.

More broadly - channelers still get blown up. Channelers still blow people up. Channelers still get interrupted, and are in a fairly good place as far as defense I feel (most masters and especially rogues will break my defense in combo enough that I don't matter much to the fight). The place where I'd tone them down is the die-in-a-bash case, which feels terrible and leads to some really weird fights once lots of channelers get involved and typically leads to really bad PK for both sides. Would rather have channeler max engage rather than trying weave delay timings, just seems like a cleaner solution.

[Rig]

I have suggested before perhaps making some rooms no fire weaves/no water weaves like they are down south. It's pretty great. Also +1 to removal of borderland channies. Pking a channie that is 18 19 19 17 16 with 340 hp is stupid. Gimme the 14 con, 240 hp max.

What benefit do you think they'd have that you don't already have? The nofire/nowater rooms are important down south because very little PK happens in zones with any sort of anti-channie anything (options pretty much start and end with Yandar, no one's pking AD if they can help it). Up north there's 1s x, fade mobs that can poison and will aggro channies specifically (fairly sure on that last part, someone check me), and a slightly-more-neutral stedding. I tend to see the problem more towards an unwillingness to use the spots provided (weirdly, the usual regroup point from 1s x is blight, when I just get superpowered fireballs from being there..) than a lack of options.

Those rooms and zones you mention aren't weave specific and give channelers no room to do anything other than waste hp, hence good luck getting half 90% of the no risk pkers to even hit you there, which is generally boring for both sides.

Weave specific rooms still give channelers room to not be completely worthless but have access to less weaves depending on the situation. Benefits everyone really!