I'm looking for genunine feedback on the weapon adjustments from 3 weeks back.
Want to hear from you if you are:
- a 2h axe user
- a 2h long blade user
- a 2h club user
- a halberd user
- a heron marked greatsword user
- a dodger who has been on receiving end of any of those weapons
Perspectives from both trollocs and humans, masters and not masters are all valuable as comparisons.
I don't imagine many changes, for every reason I could think to tinker with a stat here and there now, I can just as easily think of a good reason to leave it the same - these groups seem to have achieved reasonable balance.
Regardless, I'd like to know player perception of how things stand. If for no other reason than to guide people into picking up some weapons they perhaps have not tried yet. And who knows I may be tempted by well reasoned arguments into further minor adjustments.
Keep on topic please.
Feedback: 2h abs/bash weapons
Re: Feedback:
I mentioned this in a different thread, but I think csword damage should probably come down a tiny bit. I don't think it's good for a non-rare weapon to be extremely and very harding unbashed through breastplates, especially considering how well it bashes.
Re: Feedback:
I've been testing out 2h axes and feel like e-axe is woefully low on damage. I can't get a frag to save my life (literally) with a non-master 21 str trolloc.
in last pk fight I had [2 Frags], [2 Very Hards], [5 Blasts], [1 Tickle] and [1 Fail to Blast]..with 99% practiced. Never seen that before.
Granted it's an eaxe, and i'm not expecting anything amazing...but axes need something. I would sacrifice a little ob for some chance at damage.
Axes used to be damage. Clubs bash. Lblades OB.
While the balance is LOADS better than what it has been, It still looks like the axe family is lacking any form of attraction.
in last pk fight I had [2 Frags], [2 Very Hards], [5 Blasts], [1 Tickle] and [1 Fail to Blast]..with 99% practiced. Never seen that before.
Granted it's an eaxe, and i'm not expecting anything amazing...but axes need something. I would sacrifice a little ob for some chance at damage.
Axes used to be damage. Clubs bash. Lblades OB.
While the balance is LOADS better than what it has been, It still looks like the axe family is lacking any form of attraction.
Re: Feedback:
I've been enjoying dark grim, I haven't wanted to touch eaxe or bronzer so I'm unsure if they were upped again. A few weeks ago they were horrible. Damage and OB is good, its relatively rare, bash is good on abs and combo, won't bash perfect dodge unless berserk and even then not consistently.
Re: Feedback:
Keep it coming, thanks, but a few comments from me at this point.
When you say 'won't bash perfect dodge', quantifiers would be helpful. Saying 'perfect dodge' is a lot less useful than knowing a db figure. Also, just who is doing the bashing? A mounted master? A trolloc who isnt master? Someone in between? One of the hardest parts about balancing weapons when it comes to bash is the different experiences of different players.
Dark Grim is indeed a great weapon, more people should give it a try. The damage is extremely high for a normal weapon. The ob is high too. Clearly you have a touch less weight than some other options, but think of it as the wsl of the axe world.
Eaxe and Bronze are very similar weapons. Eaxe edges it, but bronze is an extremely solid back up. The damage here is again very high, both of them beat 2h sword damage, and people need to take that into account when judging these weapons against other options. The ob is slightly lower, and weight is ok. If some changes were to come here perhaps I'd look at .5 lbs extra each, or perhaps +2 ob each. That said, I feel these two axes are a lot better than players are giving them credit to be.
Csword damage is... how can I be helpful without giving the game away here... there is a group of weapons that all have extremely similar damage. That group, when talking 2h weapons, includes Csword, Halberd, Mallet, Claymore, WSL and Taxe. Csword has become very popular and I think people are probably more critical of it because they are on the wrong end of it more often than some other very similar weapons?
The more detailed feedback is, the more useful it can be. Otherwise, we're all just here listing feelings and experiences based on our own limited perspective. I do appreciate the feedback though, and acknowledge that most of us are simply limited to our personal experiences rather than having time to do a ton of testing and be scientific about it. The more we can compare apples to apples, rather than apples to oranges, the better and more useful the conclusions will be.
On the other hand... I can see stats you can't. So let me give a few tips on different ranges of these 2h weapons for those who have not had time to test everything since the changes. I'm not including uniques. There are some certainly variations in my groupings, some more than others. Take it all with a grain of salt, but these are guides based on me glancing at stats. Of course, when it comes to the overall best choice it can be harder to judge.
Want damage?
Group 1 - war maul, tainted maul, heron great
Group 2 - dark grim axe, bronze axe, eaxe, jagged warsword
Group 3 - halberd, csword, mallet, claymore, taxe, wsl
Group 4 - gsword, spiked warhammer, double axe with black haft
Group 5 - prod, mattock, gold axe
Want ob?
Group 1 - heron great, wsl, jagged warsword
Group 2 - dark grim, claymore, prod, gold axe
Group 3 - mallet, csword, halberd, gsword, taxe, double axe with black haft, war maul
Group 4 - eaxe, bronze axe, spiked warhammer, mattock, tainted maul
Want bash?
This is a lot harder, but let me give this a crack based purely on the numbers. It would take some pretty solid testing to reliably group these better. Keep in mind your experience is going to vary based on your individual stats, whether you are mounted, master etc.
Group 1 - prod
Group 2 - halberd, csword, mallet, taxe, heron great
Group 3 - claymore, wsl, gsword, spiked warhammer, mattock, gold axe, double axe with black haft, eaxe, bronze axe, dark grim, jagged warsword, tainted maul, war maul
Group 3 obviously covers a lot but to be honest stats alone just can't split most of them and I've run out of time to juggle stats around in my head right now, there are too many variables for a quick judgement. The clubs are hard to place due to their inherent bash bonus which I can't see or judge from stats. We know that other stats affect bash outside of weight, but just how much? Solid bash testing would be more valuable to me than anything else, so consider that a challenge to anyone who has time and inclination to contribute to this discussion!
When you say 'won't bash perfect dodge', quantifiers would be helpful. Saying 'perfect dodge' is a lot less useful than knowing a db figure. Also, just who is doing the bashing? A mounted master? A trolloc who isnt master? Someone in between? One of the hardest parts about balancing weapons when it comes to bash is the different experiences of different players.
Dark Grim is indeed a great weapon, more people should give it a try. The damage is extremely high for a normal weapon. The ob is high too. Clearly you have a touch less weight than some other options, but think of it as the wsl of the axe world.
Eaxe and Bronze are very similar weapons. Eaxe edges it, but bronze is an extremely solid back up. The damage here is again very high, both of them beat 2h sword damage, and people need to take that into account when judging these weapons against other options. The ob is slightly lower, and weight is ok. If some changes were to come here perhaps I'd look at .5 lbs extra each, or perhaps +2 ob each. That said, I feel these two axes are a lot better than players are giving them credit to be.
Csword damage is... how can I be helpful without giving the game away here... there is a group of weapons that all have extremely similar damage. That group, when talking 2h weapons, includes Csword, Halberd, Mallet, Claymore, WSL and Taxe. Csword has become very popular and I think people are probably more critical of it because they are on the wrong end of it more often than some other very similar weapons?
The more detailed feedback is, the more useful it can be. Otherwise, we're all just here listing feelings and experiences based on our own limited perspective. I do appreciate the feedback though, and acknowledge that most of us are simply limited to our personal experiences rather than having time to do a ton of testing and be scientific about it. The more we can compare apples to apples, rather than apples to oranges, the better and more useful the conclusions will be.
On the other hand... I can see stats you can't. So let me give a few tips on different ranges of these 2h weapons for those who have not had time to test everything since the changes. I'm not including uniques. There are some certainly variations in my groupings, some more than others. Take it all with a grain of salt, but these are guides based on me glancing at stats. Of course, when it comes to the overall best choice it can be harder to judge.
Want damage?
Group 1 - war maul, tainted maul, heron great
Group 2 - dark grim axe, bronze axe, eaxe, jagged warsword
Group 3 - halberd, csword, mallet, claymore, taxe, wsl
Group 4 - gsword, spiked warhammer, double axe with black haft
Group 5 - prod, mattock, gold axe
Want ob?
Group 1 - heron great, wsl, jagged warsword
Group 2 - dark grim, claymore, prod, gold axe
Group 3 - mallet, csword, halberd, gsword, taxe, double axe with black haft, war maul
Group 4 - eaxe, bronze axe, spiked warhammer, mattock, tainted maul
Want bash?
This is a lot harder, but let me give this a crack based purely on the numbers. It would take some pretty solid testing to reliably group these better. Keep in mind your experience is going to vary based on your individual stats, whether you are mounted, master etc.
Group 1 - prod
Group 2 - halberd, csword, mallet, taxe, heron great
Group 3 - claymore, wsl, gsword, spiked warhammer, mattock, gold axe, double axe with black haft, eaxe, bronze axe, dark grim, jagged warsword, tainted maul, war maul
Group 3 obviously covers a lot but to be honest stats alone just can't split most of them and I've run out of time to juggle stats around in my head right now, there are too many variables for a quick judgement. The clubs are hard to place due to their inherent bash bonus which I can't see or judge from stats. We know that other stats affect bash outside of weight, but just how much? Solid bash testing would be more valuable to me than anything else, so consider that a challenge to anyone who has time and inclination to contribute to this discussion!
Re: Feedback: 2h abs/bash weapons
I have been running around with 140 db riding and 145 db on foot. (That is with armor)
I wasn't sure where to put this :
Currently I am most afraid of :
Taking a bash from a C-sword or G-sword. Dmg + Bash landing is too high.
Being wrecked unbashed by Longblades in general. OB is there game, so this is fine.
Clubs bash well if not a little inconsistently.
Axes are unreliable, but always have been for bash. Their damage makes up for it.
My foremost opponents are Fades, Master trollocs, Trollocs and occasionaly Dreadlords who don't bash, so I won't count them.
Fades :
All mounted fades, can sit me regularly and with little difficulty with virtually any weapon.
I've little experience of having bashes run on me by dismounted fades.
I feel, I get bashed 80% of the time.
Master trollocs :
Any 18+ str master trolloc can sit 145 db, but I do notice I dodge a little bit more with 145 than with 140. I get bashed more by Longblades than by Mallets or Axes.
I feel, I get bashed 70% of the time.
Trollocs :
Similar to Master trollocs but I dodge a minor amount more.
I feel, I get bashed 50% of the time.
Now, that is very open information. I'll comment on the Groups.
Want damage?
Group 1 - war maul, tainted maul, heron great
Group 2 - dark grim axe, bronze axe, eaxe, jagged warsword
Group 3 - halberd, csword, mallet, claymore, taxe, wsl
Group 4 - gsword, spiked warhammer, double axe with black haft
Group 5 - prod, mattock, gold axe
Want ob?
Group 1 - heron great, wsl, jagged warsword
Group 2 - dark grim, claymore, prod, gold axe
Group 3 - mallet, csword, halberd, gsword, taxe, double axe with black haft, war maul
Group 4 - eaxe, bronze axe, spiked warhammer, mattock, tainted maul
Want bash?
This is a lot harder, but let me give this a crack based purely on the numbers. It would take some pretty solid testing to reliably group these better. Keep in mind your experience is going to vary based on your individual stats, whether you are mounted, master etc.
Group 1 - prod
Group 2 - halberd, csword, mallet, taxe, heron great
Group 3 - claymore, wsl, gsword, spiked warhammer, mattock, gold axe, double axe with black haft, eaxe, bronze axe, dark grim, jagged warsword, tainted maul, war maul
I'd like to add that in that list of weapons, the following should be "poor mans re-eq" weapons and not considered top contenders:
Spiked warhammer
Double axe with black haft
Mattock
Gold axe
Halberd
Claymore
These should be "bad" mirror images of their Top tier version. IE. Mattock should bash but have terrible ob/dmg. Claymore should have high ob but bad weight/dmg. Gold Axe should have high dmg but bad OB/weight, ect.
It is important to note that Bash, is by far the most important stat on any weapon. While OB is important and if used properly, can be devastating to trash opponents unbashed it will rarely be seen that way. Same thing for Damage. Damage has always been my personal favorite but if you can't Bash, damage alone requires the assistance of someone who can bash. Therefore, Bash should be given to Clubs as a class and the others have their "specialties" Ob and Dmg.
As a full dodger, I should be afraid of Club users. Hesitant of Axe users and Careful around Longblade users.
As a comboer, I should still be afraid of Club users. Careful of Axe users and Afraid of Longblade users (Due to high OB wrecking combo deffence).
As an abser, I should be comfortable against a Club user. Wrecked by an Axe user and Comfortable against a Longblade user.
Long blades :
WSL : Is a good example of what longblades should be at their peak. High OB, medium damage, medium bash. In the hands of a zerk warrior, they should shred through opponents without needing to bash. (C-sword should be less good than WSL or a Club version of a long blade or removed as it is taking the place of a club)
C-swords : They bash too well and their damage is too high. Their OB is high, which is what it is supposed to have as a Longblade but coupled with great bash and high damage, they are "too good" for their class. I would suggest moving it down to Group 5 in damage making it the equivalent of a "club like bashing weapon" that's a sword.
G-sword : A "less good" version of the C-sword. But still a "club" with high OB. Although this is a fairer version of a bashing Longblade imo but can still sit 145+ db.
Variations of the Longblades Class should be a copy of WSL then removing stuff. IE. Always keep the High OB, but remove dmg or remove weight or remove parry.
Clubs :
Actually I am going to stop here. Longblades have taken the place of Clubs currently and no one needs to use a club when a c-sword and a bit less, a g-sword out classes it.
And Axes are (and have always been) unreliable bash (which is fine) but can no longer compete with Longblades covering more bases in general.
And Polearms can be completely disregarded as a class as only 1 weapon is a possible abs-type weapon. (which is fine)
I'll close by agreeing and quoting Rentris :
Axes used to be damage. Clubs bash. Lblades OB.
I wasn't sure where to put this :
Currently I am most afraid of :
Taking a bash from a C-sword or G-sword. Dmg + Bash landing is too high.
Being wrecked unbashed by Longblades in general. OB is there game, so this is fine.
Clubs bash well if not a little inconsistently.
Axes are unreliable, but always have been for bash. Their damage makes up for it.
My foremost opponents are Fades, Master trollocs, Trollocs and occasionaly Dreadlords who don't bash, so I won't count them.
Fades :
All mounted fades, can sit me regularly and with little difficulty with virtually any weapon.
I've little experience of having bashes run on me by dismounted fades.
I feel, I get bashed 80% of the time.
Master trollocs :
Any 18+ str master trolloc can sit 145 db, but I do notice I dodge a little bit more with 145 than with 140. I get bashed more by Longblades than by Mallets or Axes.
I feel, I get bashed 70% of the time.
Trollocs :
Similar to Master trollocs but I dodge a minor amount more.
I feel, I get bashed 50% of the time.
Now, that is very open information. I'll comment on the Groups.
Want damage?
Group 1 - war maul, tainted maul, heron great
Group 2 - dark grim axe, bronze axe, eaxe, jagged warsword
Group 3 - halberd, csword, mallet, claymore, taxe, wsl
Group 4 - gsword, spiked warhammer, double axe with black haft
Group 5 - prod, mattock, gold axe
Want ob?
Group 1 - heron great, wsl, jagged warsword
Group 2 - dark grim, claymore, prod, gold axe
Group 3 - mallet, csword, halberd, gsword, taxe, double axe with black haft, war maul
Group 4 - eaxe, bronze axe, spiked warhammer, mattock, tainted maul
Want bash?
This is a lot harder, but let me give this a crack based purely on the numbers. It would take some pretty solid testing to reliably group these better. Keep in mind your experience is going to vary based on your individual stats, whether you are mounted, master etc.
Group 1 - prod
Group 2 - halberd, csword, mallet, taxe, heron great
Group 3 - claymore, wsl, gsword, spiked warhammer, mattock, gold axe, double axe with black haft, eaxe, bronze axe, dark grim, jagged warsword, tainted maul, war maul
I'd like to add that in that list of weapons, the following should be "poor mans re-eq" weapons and not considered top contenders:
Spiked warhammer
Double axe with black haft
Mattock
Gold axe
Halberd
Claymore
These should be "bad" mirror images of their Top tier version. IE. Mattock should bash but have terrible ob/dmg. Claymore should have high ob but bad weight/dmg. Gold Axe should have high dmg but bad OB/weight, ect.
It is important to note that Bash, is by far the most important stat on any weapon. While OB is important and if used properly, can be devastating to trash opponents unbashed it will rarely be seen that way. Same thing for Damage. Damage has always been my personal favorite but if you can't Bash, damage alone requires the assistance of someone who can bash. Therefore, Bash should be given to Clubs as a class and the others have their "specialties" Ob and Dmg.
As a full dodger, I should be afraid of Club users. Hesitant of Axe users and Careful around Longblade users.
As a comboer, I should still be afraid of Club users. Careful of Axe users and Afraid of Longblade users (Due to high OB wrecking combo deffence).
As an abser, I should be comfortable against a Club user. Wrecked by an Axe user and Comfortable against a Longblade user.
Long blades :
WSL : Is a good example of what longblades should be at their peak. High OB, medium damage, medium bash. In the hands of a zerk warrior, they should shred through opponents without needing to bash. (C-sword should be less good than WSL or a Club version of a long blade or removed as it is taking the place of a club)
C-swords : They bash too well and their damage is too high. Their OB is high, which is what it is supposed to have as a Longblade but coupled with great bash and high damage, they are "too good" for their class. I would suggest moving it down to Group 5 in damage making it the equivalent of a "club like bashing weapon" that's a sword.
G-sword : A "less good" version of the C-sword. But still a "club" with high OB. Although this is a fairer version of a bashing Longblade imo but can still sit 145+ db.
Variations of the Longblades Class should be a copy of WSL then removing stuff. IE. Always keep the High OB, but remove dmg or remove weight or remove parry.
Clubs :
Actually I am going to stop here. Longblades have taken the place of Clubs currently and no one needs to use a club when a c-sword and a bit less, a g-sword out classes it.
And Axes are (and have always been) unreliable bash (which is fine) but can no longer compete with Longblades covering more bases in general.
And Polearms can be completely disregarded as a class as only 1 weapon is a possible abs-type weapon. (which is fine)
I'll close by agreeing and quoting Rentris :
Axes used to be damage. Clubs bash. Lblades OB.
Re: Feedback: 2h abs/bash weapons
I'd have to disagree with Synthia on the csword/gsword. i fought nexen this morning with a csword, who was fully kitted out in dodge with katars, i ran at bloody beat while he was still wounded. i fought another trolloc rogue solo, i think angkar, ended up a stalemate with each of us beat. maybe that was the luck of the draw with bashing, but i don't feel that overall they're overpowered vrs dodge.
Re: Feedback: 2h abs/bash weapons
Corath lies. If you’re dodge, I challenge you to fight Corath at mobs and see what happens.
Re: Feedback: 2h abs/bash weapons
Corath both the rogues to just named are in epic dodge kits. Full rares/uniques. You’d be hard pressed to find many others in the same sort of setups. It’s not a good judge to say your non rare weapon couldn’t sit someone with 4-5 rares.
Re: Feedback: 2h abs/bash weapons
Avalanche advisory update: beware of cswords and mallets at the moment.