Fostering an Accountable Community

[vhalerie]

If you want things to run smoothly then find your niche.

People will come to play this mud for usually one reason. For most here thats the pk, and forcing them to RP and to limit what they do when they can see clear benefits for breaking that is going to be an uphill battle all the way.

People who come for the RP and the atmosphere are going to "ruin pk" by not engaging except in overwhelming numbers, and forcing them because of "rp reasons like an aes sedai has to kill trollocs if she sees them" is not going to get the pk that you want.

If you want to make good player interactions then find what makes the game great and focus on that, when you try to please everyone then nobody is happy at the end of it.

Star wars mud is a perfect example of it, its a mud specifically designed for exploring, and so it attracts only people who are interested in exploring. That leaves you with is a playerbase that will call you out if you accidently leak something on globals that is secret, and who will refuse to share maps, or tell you how to get any of the best items, or beat any of the quests, because if you dont enjoy finding them then you wont enjoy that mud.

At this point, I don't personally have much stake in at all, I came because of the game mechanics and had a blast, but I had too much of people telling each other how to play and forcing things down people's throats so I havent played in months and dont plan on being around much at all, but I had some good times and hope the best for you all. If you want to make it a fun place to be though, make it organic by finding what this mud is good for and relax on everything else

[Kitiara]

I had started writing a longer post about this topic, but scratched it because I ran out of time. One part of it though, included what Rob mentioned, which is incentive. There is really not much tangible incentive to roleplaying. Sure, the folks who already like to roleplay will enjoy the rewards of a deeper atmosphere, and perhaps the roleplay-based bonuses. But for the rest of the players, who want loot, PK and other tangible bonuses, those rewards are next to useless. So the incentive is minimal.

A mob raid tied to a story line that comes with the lead mob loading some goodies - that is one way to get those kinds of people engaged with roleplay. But getting people who don't typically want to roleplay to want to roleplay... Good luck with that, it will be a forever problem just like getting some of the heaviest RPs to want to PK.

To add to this, the rpqps are cool, and the rewards neat... I even think that having RP requirements for certain clans makes a ton of sense... but the fact that we have to log, clean up the log, post the log and then another player has to spend time to read and grade them (a subjective process I still think is innately flawed.) causes rpqp to feel like a giant chore. Its the least fun thing to do for me and its why even though I am so close to r8, it will probably take me ages because I just hate posting crap on the roleplay forum. I also dont feel like reading peoples logs and grading them, so It feels unfair for me to post to the forum without contributing to the process... I want to play, I want to RP in real time, I dont want to then go back and do paperwork for an hour to try to get an extra rpqp here or there. I have RPed weeks if not months worth of hours on this MUD, and almost none of it is logged... just like real life I dont like recording every moment, I prefer to be in the moment.

RPkudos don't work, no one uses them, and the fact that you need 3 to get a qp makes them feel like a pittance. In addition there are times where I have small interactions with people and I have to wonder... is this an rpkudo moment, or should this be posted for rpqps... At least in me there is a sense of fear to double rewarding or the like because the penalties are large.

So while there are rewards for RP nowadays... they are just such a pain to get. You dont just have to Roleplay well (again a standard that is ambiguous at best)... you also have to do paperwork. Some people dont mind it... I would bet a lot of us hate it... especially when our lives are busy and we suddenly have to choose between log clean up/posting or any other more rewarding thing in our lives.

I wish I had a solution to this... I dont... but maybe some body else does?

Star wars mud is a perfect example of it, its a mud specifically designed for exploring, and so it attracts only people who are interested in exploring. That leaves you with is a playerbase that will call you out if you accidently leak something on globals that is secret, and who will refuse to share maps, or tell you how to get any of the best items, or beat any of the quests, because if you dont enjoy finding them then you wont enjoy that mud.

I think this is true for WOTMUD as well... I miss the days of FOFY. While the Wiki is great and adaels map is awesome... it also ruins a big part of the game. Running around to new areas, exploring, finding hidden stuff... used to be awesome. Not sure you can put the toothpaste back in the bottle, but at least for me, I miss the lack of information available...

Remember we most of us thought silver coils did something for MCs... or when there was a 100% sculpted angreal load on tremalking that required like 99 search and 99 pick to get into... I was shown those things in confidence years ago, Dean literally told me do not tell anyone or it will end up going away... I didnt, and I barely ever hit it because who has 99 search and pick all the time, but eventually it got out... those smobs moved and the loads reduced... and they had to... because once info became public those loads became overpowered...

Maybe im just nostalgic for a past that wasn't necessarily better... knowing weapons and armor stats is way nicer... so idk *shrug*

[Thore]

@Kitiara - yup, the "RP rewards" system is a huge chore. I know some staff acknowledge it as I've spoken to them about it, and I know they wish they could get a better coded solution in place. And props to Elysia for piecing something together with mobol, but it will remain a big speed bump until a smoother system is in place (which will still inheriently be more difficult than PK's reward structure of turn in scalp = QP reward, and auto-TP rewarded upon kill).

And agree with you - FOFY is missed by me, at least. The push for everything to be open source definitely ruins a lot of it. But it also helps in some places.

[Habbakuk]

I’m amazed at the amount of things people find to exploit! My game knowledge ends after “k xxxxx” or run Falme.

[jafra]

Draz is the GOAT

Great player, lots of positive contributions

[Vala]

The only thing I could see about this is whether people have an aversion to what they believe to be "snitching" or if they just don't care because it doesn't affect them - the idea that we are all adults now and this is just a game so we should have fun instead of tattling on each other and policing each other and our actions.

As an Accepted I still need to pass votes taken among an unknown number of people whom I may never meet in-game, and there's already enough risk in that process. I’m one of the few who don't know everyone’s alts, and my Tower career is likely ruined if I snitch on the wrong player or one of their friends.

[reil]

Valid. Have to watch with some level of amusement which names are suddenly online for the first time in months whenever there's a vote up.

[Isela]

The only thing I could see about this is whether people have an aversion to what they believe to be "snitching" or if they just don't care because it doesn't affect them - the idea that we are all adults now and this is just a game so we should have fun instead of tattling on each other and policing each other and our actions.

As an Accepted I still need to pass votes taken among an unknown number of people whom I may never meet in-game, and there's already enough risk in that process. I’m one of the few who don't know everyone’s alts, and my Tower career is likely ruined if I snitch on the wrong player or one of their friends.

Seconded

[Sarinda]

As a psychologist, my career is focused on helping people to develop, strengthen, and then maintain new behaviors. This is the lens through which I approach questions like how to foster growth and positivity at the group level.

There are a number of very well established principles that guide behavior modification (e.g., https://www.edpsycinteractive.org/topic ... ehmod.html). To briefly summarize some of the most important principles:

1. Creating rewards that are timely, desirable, and predictable is the most important step in shaping behaviors.
2. Punishments are less effective at shaping behaviors than rewards, can increase feelings of hostility and resentment, and should be paired with rewards to enhance their effectiveness.
3. People who are already motivated to change are more likely to when offered reinforcement.
4. People can learn through observation, which can include live modeling, symbolic modeling (such as a role model or fictional character), and verbal instruction.

I love the Immortals' reasoning for asking this question and am really pleased to see healthy dialogue on this topic for our MUD. However, responses on this thread seems to be focusing on the question "How do we hold people accountable for violations in roleplay?", when I think it would be more productive and inherently more positive if we focused on the question "How do we foster an immersive environment driven by quality roleplay and frequent, small-scale player interactions?"

Some of the systems we have in place in game, both mechanically and socially in our local MUD culture, promote immersion and allow for players to reinforce each other for positive and small-scale roleplay:

• RPKudos can be used by any player, at virtually any time, to provide timely rewards to other players who stay in character and thus reinforce positive, brief RP interactions.
• RP QPs are available for quality RP logs that are submitted and posted online, and awards are publicly posted on the forums, so a community of roleplayers can enjoy content together but also see that their hard work is rewarded. RP QPs are still "real" QPs in that they can be spent to issue equipment, and gaining QPs is a very meaningful outcome.
• A comprehensive system of RP rank awards, with clear requirements and benefits, are explicitly posted online and are seen as desirable by the target audience (RP and PvE focused players), which incorporates social learning as well as long-term reinforcers.
• A shared premise that roleplay is one of the core pillars of WoTMUD, with immersion supported by the sheer scope and history of this game, which contributes favorably to a culture of immersion.
• Many clans have roleplay-focused requirements for ranking or remaining in the clan that are posted and enforced by those clans. The White Tower is the prime example I'm most intimately familiar with, although I know there are a number of other clans (e.g., *oL) that have RP standards and consequences for breaking them.
• The existence of a highly visible thread that shows Immortal actions for accountability and explains reasons for punishments.

Conversely, there are some reasons that I think these systems have not already led to a self-sustaining environment that promotes frequent, quality, small-scale RP:

• Players, even hardcore RPers, are not reliably using RPKudos to reward each other. This incentive is inconsistently applied. Furthermore, the rate of awards is very low compared to other ways of accruing "normal" QPs in game. You need 3 RPKudos to earn 1 RP QP (and I'm not even honestly sure if it's flagged as a "normal" QP or an RP QP). For people who know me, I pride myself on being in character almost all the time I am awake in game, and I constantly try to contribute to an immersive RP experience across all of my characters, and I have earned maybe 2 QP total across the lifetime of all my characters using this sytem.
• In contrast, small-scale actions have the potential for some characters (e.g., Aes Sedai, *oL, I assume Kin) to have lasting, drastic consequences (e.g., docking Erulisse and Relena over 100 QP for killing Dragonsworn or Children of Light mobs respectively when flipping Baerlon), up to and including declanning or even stilling of a channeler character.
• An overwhelming majority of RP QP awards are not timely or immediate. RP QPs from posted logs are not awarded until logs have been edited, posted, and reviewed. Right now, the oldest posted and unrewarded RP log I could find on Tower RP forums was submitted by Skyra on 2/15/24.
• There appears to be a hotly contested debate among players on whether RP or PK is more important to the core identity of WoTMUD, which I see as a false dichotomy. This is driven by a shared QP system in which PK and RP QPs can both directly contribute to ranking, and ranking is the primary vehicle to advance characters, so there are fears shared by some that RP QPs cannot be "easy" or "safe" to obtain or they will devalue the QPs earned from PK.
• The most publicly shared responses to violations have emphasized punishments, including QP dockings, declanning, "demorting" of Fades or Dreadlords. This could explain why Staff feel animosity and defensiveness from players, and over time could be contributing to the "30-year grudges" the Staff referenced in the original post.

If I were to use behavioral principles to create an evidence-based road map for promoting the target behavior of fostering quality, frequent, immersive roleplay focused on small-scale interactions, I would recommend the following changes, some of which have already been suggested by other people in this thread:

1. Players need to agree to start using RPKudos regularly, consistently, and immediately in the middle of scenes when you are having fun and want to let a player know it's appreciated. This is precluded by mobol that prevents you from giving RPKudos to someone in the same room as you; I would personally recommend trialing removal of that restriction and see if the benefits of allowing players to award each other instantly outweighs the potential risk of abuse of this command.
2. Increase opportunities for timely, immediate rewards from for small-scale interactions that are provided by Staff. Go wizinvis, snoop on RP interactions, award 1 RP QP to parties involved, and then send them tells with immediate feedback on the reason for awarding. Don't leave them guessing on whether their QPs were adjusted or why, make it explicit for them.
3. I would argue that the value or reward of RPKudos should be increased. I would recommend bumping straight up to 1 RP QP per kudo. If Staff are concerned about abuse or weight of RP QPs, then perhaps limit the number of kudos you can receive per day or from a single person, with the knowledge that this could weaken the reinforcement granted from RPKudos (and thus its potential impact on the target behavior).
4. This would require coding, but I wish there was a way to divorce RP QPs and PK QPs, and further distinguish ranks and rank-based benefits for roleplay. If coding is not feasible, give RPers additional long-term goals and reinforcers for behavior that are tied to existing RP ranks, and then pair that with more ways to earn RP QPs. If Staff are concerned about QP bloat, then set time limits or time-gated requirements on RP rank advancement.
5. Increase visibility of modeling for positive roleplay. Reinstitute a "RP log of the month". Create a shoutout thread on forums or increase awards for people nominated on the #shoutout channel on the WoTMUD Discord server. Players could nominate or vote on favorite RP logs, which would increase a sense of player agency and community.
6. I really like the idea of brief events that promote crossover between RP and PK. Load a special item (e.g., a unique item that was accidentally lost to a DT, rare equipment) and have their clan mob call for help with a quest. If the Amyrlin called all members of the Tower to an emergency meeting of the Hall and gave us instruction on something, you would 100% have my attention and I would be in character for it. Allow bonus RP QPs for any follow-up logs for the next week that reference the quest/event.
7. Create mobol-based coding for in-game mechanics that have RP flavor and are relevant to group-based activities such as smobbing or PK. My favorite example is how my Gleeman can play an instrument and apply the Chill status to a few minions when smobbing.

I know that a majority of my suggestions above require Staff involvement, but until and unless players have the necessary tools at their disposal to reliably and meaningfully award each other in the moment, I think it's going to be hard to adjust behaviors the way you are hoping for. That's why I think efforts for accountability in small-scale interaction needs to start with drawing on the tools and processes we already have in place to reward RP and trying to use them more.

[Elysia]

I know that a majority of my suggestions above require Staff involvement, but until and unless players have the necessary tools at their disposal to reliably and meaningfully award each other in the moment, I think it's going to be hard to adjust behaviors the way you are hoping for.

Slight edit in order in order to (haha) respond.

If I were to use behavioral principles to create an evidence-based road map for promoting the target behavior of fostering quality, frequent, immersive roleplay focused on small-scale interactions, I would recommend the following changes, some of which have already been suggested by other people in this thread:

1. Players need to agree to start using RPKudos regularly, consistently, and immediately in the middle of scenes when you are having fun and want to let a player know it's appreciated. This is precluded by mobol that prevents you from giving RPKudos to someone in the same room as you; I would personally recommend trialing removal of that restriction and see if the benefits of allowing players to award each other instantly outweighs the potential risk of abuse of this command.
2. Increase opportunities for timely, immediate rewards from for small-scale interactions that are provided by Staff. Go wizinvis, snoop on RP interactions, award 1 RP QP to parties involved, and then send them tells with immediate feedback on the reason for awarding. Don't leave them guessing on whether their QPs were adjusted or why, make it explicit for them.
3. I would argue that the value or reward of RPKudos should be increased. I would recommend bumping straight up to 1 RP QP per kudo. If Staff are concerned about abuse or weight of RP QPs, then perhaps limit the number of kudos you can receive per day or from a single person, with the knowledge that this could weaken the reinforcement granted from RPKudos (and thus its potential impact on the target behavior).
4. This would require coding, but I wish there was a way to divorce RP QPs and PK QPs, and further distinguish ranks and rank-based benefits for roleplay. If coding is not feasible, give RPers additional long-term goals and reinforcers for behavior that are tied to existing RP ranks, and then pair that with more ways to earn RP QPs. If Staff are concerned about QP bloat, then set time limits or time-gated requirements on RP rank advancement.
5. Increase visibility of modeling for positive roleplay. Reinstitute a "RP log of the month". Create a shoutout thread on forums or increase awards for people nominated on the #shoutout channel on the WoTMUD Discord server. Players could nominate or vote on favorite RP logs, which would increase a sense of player agency and community.
6. I really like the idea of brief events that promote crossover between RP and PK. Load a special item (e.g., a unique item that was accidentally lost to a DT, rare equipment) and have their clan mob call for help with a quest. If the Amyrlin called all members of the Tower to an emergency meeting of the Hall and gave us instruction on something, you would 100% have my attention and I would be in character for it. Allow bonus RP QPs for any follow-up logs for the next week that reference the quest/event.
7. Create mobol-based coding for in-game mechanics that have RP flavor and are relevant to group-based activities such as smobbing or PK. My favorite example is how my Gleeman can play an instrument and apply the Chill status to a few minions when smobbing.

I often check to see if there is roleplay going on, but I can't even recall the time I last saw any. In fact, when I learned of Kitiara entering Mayene when the banishment was still active and I saw Kitiara and Chloro on, I alted up. There was no roleplay, not even tells between them. It's absurdly hard to catch it 'live'.

I agree on the coding separate RP and normal qps issue, but I heard from Flash that there isn't enough 'slots' on player files to make things like custom master titles happen, so I would assume the same applies to a 'slot' for RP qps. Altqps are the only thing we can potentially use, something that has been discussed by Staff even, but that comes with its own set of challenges... Like excluding darkfriends from earning RP qps. Not that there's a whole lot lost there, they would lose the qps, RP qps and all, on remort, but the potential for outing would be there. "Oh, I didn't get any" because someone using their name in the wrong place, or a bug. Now, someone is suddenly under scrutiny and that someone could be an innocent too. If I could rig a solution to make this work, I absolutely would, but so far I have not found the ideal solution.

RP log of the month is something I considered, but in the past it just meant that people would post some 'meh' thing if there happened to be a month with very little posted. I actually considered doing a bonus for the best log(s) of the month, but I also notice that many people still get stuck in the day to day that isn't exactly outstanding. It would also be stupidly skewed towards Tower, because so much roleplay happens in Tower clan rooms, not out in the open, which is something Staff have been trying to troubleshoot on the side. Also, if Roberto says that he didn't get awarded for assisting with that class, that's a whole problem unto itself. *mutters something about Servants of All, not just the Tower*

Could you elaborate on the last one? Because options are limited, basically chill and blind (yes, we would like other options, but those have been in the queue for years now), and aside from the result being that smobbing is easier, I'm not seeing the connection here.