Fostering an Accountable Community

[Chloro]

(As a final note about smobbing specifically, you can say it's bad roleplay for channelers and Tairens to smob together, but channelers are the most powerful characters in the game and avoiding them completely requires so much dedication and appetite for inconvenience. This feels even worse as someone who has never derived any enjoyment from smobbing in their life.)

Don't forget the one-sidedness of it.
Tower channels swear the oaths, yet those restrictions only apply to interactions with player characters (The Baerlon incident was a rare exception)... but it never seem to apply when it's inconvenient to them.

yet CoL/Dsworn/etc. get the full brunt of the restrictions at all times.

I cannot count on both hands the number of Novices, Accepted, and Aes Sedai that have quit the game because every clan and side under the sun are allowed to run around free but, heaven forbid a sedai have some fun. Now she is hauled before the hall, judged, and given punishment, all done publicly because someone didn't like something they did. The Tower is held to a far higher standard because our characters swear oaths. In regard to your claim that channelers are the most over-powered class in the game.... Our hps were downed to 280, our weaves are hardly reliable even at high prac amounts, we get killed in a single stab not two or three like other classes and have only 1 clanned prac trainer at our clans(bases) have access to, and two unclanned pracs that will not train you in clanned weaves. You can simply walk into any city and get right in the game, a channeler can't. So, I have had enough of people calling them overpowered, they are only strong when combined with a Melee aspect for smobing, either Mob, or PC or 2/more of them together. If anything is overpowered its DS, the mob support stronger than most cities in the keep, perm blodfest sitting in the center of the map, mob support in every nation, the ability to build patties, the ability to just flame out if it gets tough, and the lack of repercussions on them simply showing up during an LS event and farming heads like candy....

Point of this post - If other clans were held to the Standards of Tar Valon Clans, you'd find more player accountability and a much more even spread or dolling out of punishments and REWARDS. I see no punishments for other clans starting wars, political incidents, or murdering members of other nations, they get a slap on the wrist and a pardon quest. Playing a Gray I would jump at the chance to see a Trial in another nation of a mass murderer or treason... Wishful thinking, I guess. I think one of the best Trial rp’s I have seen was when they questioned, I think it was Hether (dreadlord) after she was captured. That and the yellow that was found to a dark friend and stilled/executed. Everyone wants to hold a Sedai responsible, but no one wants to be responsible when there is no sedai to blame. That is the main reason I responded to Bakkus’s IC posts the way I did. I am tired of seeing my clan mates rake in all the punishments, its time other clans start sharing it when their own members act up.

[Elysia]

Out of curiosity, Chloro, why did you address that post to npcs? Because you could as easily have mailed players.

[Prykor]

I cannot count on both hands the number of Novices, Accepted, and Aes Sedai that have quit the game because every clan and side under the sun are allowed to run around free but, heaven forbid a sedai have some fun. Now she is hauled before the hall, judged, and given punishment, all done publicly because someone didn't like something they did. The Tower is held to a far higher standard because our characters swear oaths.

My experience has been it's less about the oaths, and more about the specific players and cliques involved that cause significant bitterness such that the clan(s) as a whole (to include those unaffiliated with said clique) is judged more harshly as now there is an axe to grind.

Point of this post - If other clans were held to the Standards of Tar Valon Clans, you'd find more player accountability and a much more even spread or dolling out of punishments and REWARDS. I see no punishments for other clans starting wars, political incidents, or murdering members of other nations, they get a slap on the wrist and a pardon quest.

Everyone wants to hold a Sedai responsible, but no one wants to be responsible when there is no sedai to blame. That is the main reason I responded to Bakkus’s IC posts the way I did. I am tired of seeing my clan mates rake in all the punishments, its time other clans start sharing it when their own members act up.

Why are you assuming that it's the tower person at fault automatically?
Why are outside voices treated as truth?

Why is something along the lines of a public display of an absolute feather-touch to the back of the wrists punishment with a "they will never do this again" (nudge nudge wink wink) not one of the go-to options taken for some of these disputes? (especially if the punishment is much less than the qp award from the RP log)

Playing a Gray I would jump at the chance to see a Trial in another nation of a mass murderer or treason... Wishful thinking, I guess. I think one of the best Trial rp’s I have seen was when they questioned, I think it was Hether (dreadlord) after she was captured. That and the yellow that was found to a dark friend and stilled/executed.

The MUD's mechanics are very poor in allowing anything other than a mock trial where the guilty/accused is incredibly willing. It would be interesting to see how witness testimony and cross examining would be handled, though I guess a witch hunt where the accused is going to be held guilty and executed regardless could be interesting.

I did not intend to bring up balance topics (channies, mob supprt, etc.), though I have similarly very strong feelings (with different stances on several of those items) and I will refrain from bringing that into this thread.

[Kitiara]

Playing a Gray I would jump at the chance to see a Trial in another nation of a mass murderer or treason... Wishful thinking, I guess. I think one of the best Trial rp’s I have seen was when they questioned, I think it was Hether (dreadlord) after she was captured. That and the yellow that was found to a dark friend and stilled/executed.

The MUD's mechanics are very poor in allowing anything other than a mock trial where the guilty/accused is incredibly willing. It would be interesting to see how witness testimony and cross examining would be handled, though I guess a witch hunt where the accused is going to be held guilty and executed regardless could be interesting.

I did not intend to bring up balance topics (channies, mob supprt, etc.), though I have similarly very strong feelings (with different stances on several of those items) and I will refrain from bringing that into this thread.

The MUDs mechanics work fine to hold Aes Sedai accountable because of RP factors, so why cant other clans do the same? If a clan member breaks a law or does something egregious, why is the Tower the only clan we ever see punishing people.

Even when tower characters have not been incredibly willing... the character gets jailed/sent to a farm zone where they are literally stuck. There have been instances of players just never logging onto their farmed/jailed character... but typically that is only Novice/Accepted that do that... since Aes Sedai characters have been invested in quite a bit.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Chloros point is that the small RP interactions would likely improve if clans other than tower had... any?... consequences for acting out of line. I am sure there are instances of others being punished for things, but those would likely be exceptions to the norm.

*2 copper deposited*

[Tomos]

Playing a Gray I would jump at the chance to see a Trial in another nation of a mass murderer or treason... Wishful thinking, I guess. I think one of the best Trial rp’s I have seen was when they questioned, I think it was Hether (dreadlord) after she was captured. That and the yellow that was found to a dark friend and stilled/executed.

The MUD's mechanics are very poor in allowing anything other than a mock trial where the guilty/accused is incredibly willing. It would be interesting to see how witness testimony and cross examining would be handled, though I guess a witch hunt where the accused is going to be held guilty and executed regardless could be interesting.

I did not intend to bring up balance topics (channies, mob supprt, etc.), though I have similarly very strong feelings (with different stances on several of those items) and I will refrain from bringing that into this thread.

The MUDs mechanics work fine to hold Aes Sedai accountable because of RP factors, so why cant other clans do the same? If a clan member breaks a law or does something egregious, why is the Tower the only clan we ever see punishing people.

Even when tower characters have not been incredibly willing... the character gets jailed/sent to a farm zone where they are literally stuck. There have been instances of players just never logging onto their farmed/jailed character... but typically that is only Novice/Accepted that do that... since Aes Sedai characters have been invested in quite a bit.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Chloros point is that the small RP interactions would likely improve if clans other than tower had... any?... consequences for acting out of line. I am sure there are instances of others being punished for things, but those would likely be exceptions to the norm.

*2 copper deposited*

The next question then is how many players have been declanned, lost a ton of QPs/rank, bonuses, jailed for a period of time, etc. due to these sort of events? I know that there are many players that have been declanned. Usually for the most egregious of violations (darkfriend and such). I haven't really been party to those things on my characters. Closest thing would be on my Aes Sedai, again mostly this was with novices or Accepted.

The biggest problem, I think, is communication. As an example, we recently had a player suffer some consequences for violating basic roleplay requirements in the past. Until a few weeks ago, I had not heard ANYTHING about this happening. Several players knew about it and by the time I found out, I believe the Watchers were already looking into it and deciding on a punishment. I think this happens a lot more than you think. Maybe I don't pay attention - I like to think I do, when I actually play...but had someone notified me about it, I like to think I would have done something other than looking the other way.

Is this the typical experience? If we don't know about these things when they happen by virtue of just being present, if no one bothers to tell us about it, how can we start a dialogue with someone to enforce roleplay requirements and dole out appropriate punishments?

I believe it is also important that we get a simple and explicit decree from Watchers about expectations. Recent events over the last year or so lead me to believe that they would like more serious and stringent roleplay requirements. For a game that often leaves it up to players to decide what happens, we need some guidance on these things if the current actions taken do not mesh up with the expectations from up above.

I will say this now: If you see a Child of Light grouping with the White Tower, mail us. If you see a Hand of the Light grouping with the White Tower, mail them. If you see an Illian Companion returning gear to a Defender of the Stone or a Defender of the Stone returning gear to an Illian Companion or a Defender or Winged Guard doing the same to each other, mail the clan of the offender. If you witness a Lion Warden trying to murder the butcher, mail them. If you see a novice not on the island or an Accepted Healing Seanchan, mail the Hall. Unless those people in charge know about it, they cannot do anything about it, by virtue of not being aware. I think for the most part just about everyone sticks to basic roleplay. There are a few people who skirt the line between acceptable and bad roleplay and even fewer still that outright cross it.

The only thing I could see about this is whether people have an aversion to what they believe to be "snitching" or if they just don't care because it doesn't affect them - the idea that we are all adults now and this is just a game so we should have fun instead of tattling on each other and policing each other and our actions.

I think that we can have both. I don't like doing things to ruin someone's character or play experience, but some things warrant an appropriate response. Just like we cannot force someone to sit there to roleplay it, they always have the option to click that little X at the top right of the screen. Recently, there was a novice that I inducted. I didn't think she was going to make the cut based on her behavior but inducted her anyway. Soon after, she became a runaway. We tried to chase her down to see if she wanted to roleplay the situation. She did not really seem like she wanted to. Thinking it might have been a playing hard to get angle, we had her sent to the Farm. Tried to engage with her several times over a week or two, had her practices reset, tried to talk to her, she obviously did not want to roleplay, so we let her go. There is no reason to make someone essentially sit in jail for more than two or three weeks in a situation like that, in my opinion.

Now, other situations may warrant longer time periods. I don't know what goes into the decision for that. The recent event with a player in my clan apparently warranted time longer than that. Again, I don't really know all the details. Perhaps it was more flagrant than I understood, perhaps there is history with the player themselves? As another example of this, look at Draz over the years. I think he is a good guy, but hoo boy, repeat offender if there ever was one.

A lot of it might just be the fact that the population is down. How many clans really have a big presence, other than White Tower? Winged Guard can have four or five people on at a time. Northern clans like Lancers? The ones who don't bother with southern politics? Maybe it is just more likely that a clan like White Tower will do something and get punished for it because there are more people in the White Tower, including a lot of initiates since the policy is to clan any woman who can channel?

Unless it's forced by staff, Kitiara, I think it's up to each individual if they want to do this. If you see someone do something they shouldn't, you need to speak up and notify their superiors. Otherwise, no one is going to know and nothing is going to be done.

[Kitiara]

I dont disagree, and I think a lot of what you just said is the point of this entire thread?

I do want to give IMM props for increased communication over the last year or so.

And yes there is likely a bit of perceived imbalance given that Tower activity compared to other clans... and Honestly I think the majority of the issues with the MUD these days are more about a diminished playerbase than anything else.

[Aira]

Children of the Light has/had a three strikes and you're out rule for 15-20 years, I'd guestimate. It was initiated by players after some misogynist fool was being a pita ignoring orders from the Council. It may have been used against that player, maybe? In the past it worked well to keep people within certain bounds.

[Tomos]

Children of the Light has/had a three strikes and you're out rule for 15-20 years, I'd guestimate. It was initiated by players after some misogynist fool was being a pita ignoring orders from the Council. It may have been used against that player, maybe? In the past it worked well to keep people within certain bounds.

Yeah, wasn't that Ahren or whatever his name was? As far as I can tell that is still the policy. Everything is laid out quite plainly and in an ordered manner. There is no way in my opinion that someone could honestly say they didn't know. It is the most basic of basics.

[Aira]

Children of the Light has/had a three strikes and you're out rule for 15-20 years, I'd guestimate. It was initiated by players after some misogynist fool was being a pita ignoring orders from the Council. It may have been used against that player, maybe? In the past it worked well to keep people within certain bounds.

Yeah, wasn't that Ahren or whatever his name was? As far as I can tell that is still the policy. Everything is laid out quite plainly and in an ordered manner. There is no way in my opinion that someone could honestly say they didn't know. It is the most basic of basics.

I want to say Blanka, but it's been so long, I might be wrong.

[Chloro]

Out of curiosity, Chloro, why did you address that post to npcs? Because you could as easily have mailed players.

I wanted to give free agency to the clans. They have the seeds of rp, what they choose to do with it is all their own. However, I also made sure to touch clans central to the map in hopes that it will spread out. They also tend to be more active. Immortals do enough and have given more rp startings in the past 2 years then I have seen in a long time. At some point, the players need to pick up on it, or let it fester and fade. That, and who's to say a missive might not have been intercepted on the way to one of those npcs... Fermin did that in my global master quest and it was a welcome/shocking suprise.

Edit -
If you notice, Patter and or Pitter has joined in with a post of their own. Dance puppets dance! -Maniacal Gray scheming cackle-