Stedding PK

[Khaster]

My thoughts:

1) Remove brokengate
2) Remove the area s of 1s brokengate pat - no one goes there deliberately and right now it acts as a DT for whoever is unlucky enough to flee there and have terrible dlines
3) Remove rottendoor - ever since the AS pair was removed from there, it's mostly there to force a w dline from 1s pat

Create good dlines for this area that allow for people using it as a fallback, but with the possibility to leave if you're the poor DS abser that loses there.

4) Relink the area, so allw n village links to allw pat in a 2x3 box configuration

And lastly change the mob support around sted to be 1) more reliable and 2) a little more varied. Mob support that wanders is unreliable for both sides, and tends to just get cleared over time leaving the 3 mobs at brokengate and that's it.

5) Put a fade pat-strength level pat at this new brokengate area
6) Put ~3 troll mobs where sw shivs currently are, to vary the mob support a little more
6a: DS mob support would then be: strong pat brokengate, weaker pat sw shivs, trees at ts ent, 1w1n ts ent, and allw s e village
6b: LS mob support already follows this model: solo ogier, 3x ancients 1w ts ent, wolf pat, TS

7) Delete mound. Like, I can never think of a reason I have wanted to hit it, because an area with a ton of mobs and zero good dlines anywhere in it is just awful.

I agree with this mostly.
Basically, keep the layout the same imo with just the 2 door removals and the area s of brokengate pat changed to be better.
MAYBE add smaller mob support in lesser used areas and probably beef up the current DS one if you're going to remove doors.

[Roberto]

I think stedding pk would become more bearable if the gate was removed and a mid tier patty was added somewhere for DS to use. Most the time we end up stedding its near even numbers, but LS has a channie of some type. The current patty shifts the fight way too much in the other direction, and the roaming mobs south basically have to be cleared if you want to hit brokengate patty.

Even on DS just today I was frustrated because it was obvious they could not hit us, but there was no way we could hit completely off mobs or shivs. If there was another fall back similar to say the wolves, it could add a place to keep pk going instead of both sides jsut sitting three rooms apart as fades super regen. I like the idea of something like three trollocs where southern shivs are, there are enough fade patties around giving all sorts of status effects as it is.

Removing the gate would allow for more risks/more aggressive play from LS, and taking risks is fun! Hopefully in this scnario DS wont just always run striaght to strongest mobs and LS wont go clear the patty immidiately thus forcing said stalemate all over again anyways.

[Neveyan]

4. Do nothing.

Think its great. Why? Because its used, a lot. If it didn't work you wouldn't see activity.

Not against additive ideas to make it more interesting or increase zone wide usage but I wouldn't focus on risk reducing measures (e.g. brokengate). Otherwise everything becomes vanilla.

[Penetrator]

Only small change is required

remove rottendoor. Complicates dlines 1s patty too much.
Im open to discussion what should happen with the SW area with ogiers and ancients and VERY BAD flees since its only used as a trapsystem for low hps absers. I mean MIRE is there, use that when you need to go regen a few.

If you remove all doors dodgers in low number pk (which is what mostly happens) will die less.
Absers will die anyway if they low and the otherside has more, it is fine. More deaths, more pk.
The patrol brokengate is strong but it only leads to a stalemate when LS kills all the roaming mobs around and DS is too weak to fight allw rottendoor or at SW trees. the idea with the roaming mobs is to make it so that pk can happen. if you kill em then then no pk. Same thing with dusty and roaming sergeants/etc. they are there for a reason.

[Kitiara]

Just stopping by to say I love this approach to change. Thanks.

And just to offer my 2 copper...

As an Aes Sedai I think you should just remove no channeling from steddings. *nods self*

[Prykor]

The annoying part is that low numbers end up really punished by the layout. Typically, changes have been made without much feedback, but I would like to see more people PKing

I appreciate the request for feedback!

I think that stedding is very punishing, in particular to channelers who are already playing at a disadvantage, who then can get swamped by the layout.

I disagree with this sentiment. There are much too few no-channel areas at large in PK areas in the current state of things.
A glass cannon dodge / yew staff set up for maximum defense and zero non-weaving offense SHOULD suffer greatly in no-channel areas -- there are other options for weapons that can melee better, and within the realm of 14 str and 15 str chars to use, such as the pearl handled epee, pale steel longsword, and ring-quillon sword...in addition to the Fblade, Sblade, and jav options for attack set ups.

the dodge set ups get ripped apart when bashed at mobs, but they very well could instead be combo set up and more useful overall set ups (the 15 and 16 str FCs could even go with a 2h staff, spear or polearm and prac bash instead of shield parry!). The current state of non-heavy combo makes these sort of set ups a bit under par in most PK, but they won't go from a damage powerhouse to literally useless with these set ups in places where they can't weave.

One of the larger problems with FCs in the current state of things is this min/max meta where FCs exclusively use full dodge with defensive, low damage weapons and never change mood out of wimpy. The FC response to things like no-channel areas is "well, I guess pk is over, my char can't do anything in there" and I find that quite problematic.

Also like the great mound being mountable and having a lot of LS support, but think it doesn't get much use because of how choky it's layout is. Unsure if there is any reason to give more mob support in that area to LS though. Otherwise, feel like stedding is overall good right now.

LS support in sted is in a very good place. There are duo trees, triple trees, wolves, and solo ogier for 1v1/2v2, and there are two fall back areas (ogier ghost mound & Treesinger) that can very quickly reverse the tide of combat due to the chokiness and are better suited for LS to hold up against slightly to somewhat higher numbers.

For DS, the support tends to be fine for 1v1/2v2, but very much falls short when LS outnumber with non-channeler characters. The one strong patty, that also chases a bit, is in the tunnels and tends to be a bit too powerful for 1v1 situations. the supremely chokey area down there makes most folks think twice about even bothering with it as you will likely die due to how chokey it is down there and the patty doesn't circle to the room with the door. The fade/dhound patty is an interesting one, a good fall back if you get hit while doing deranged in a 1v1... but it's largely not used and a touch weaker than the house/brokengate patties that have other smaller support around and also not trapping you in an area that can get you doored in. The two rammies are 90% going to die to the gnarled ogiers, but those ogiers aggro LS and DS which makes that area a headache to really try to use even when the situation is right.

Thoughts:

1. Remove brokengate only.
2. Move rottendoor from that room to 1w 2s and have a random door chance at the bottom of the area.
3. Make the second patrol upstairs rideable so that DS can bounce between two relatively strong patties while trying to take advantage of mobs.
4. Do nothing.

I think it is fun when changes happen because it changes dynamics and can improve the ability for PK to continue. This is likely because I can make the changes. Those changes are often not enjoyable to people experiencing them.

Any thoughts?

I recommend moving brokengate to 1s of the patty (covering west entrance) and the removal of the search door 1e in that room. That cheeky door in a 1-exit room is a large hinderance to pk when LS has the advantage, and makes LS much less inclined to go for a "we'll hit them a bit and get low then we fight in the open area when hps on both sides are a bit more fair" move in even numbers when they have the advantage.

I would also move the house across the street, from an east entrance to a west entrance from 2s of the brokengate patty, to make the d-line from the 4-dir room to pass the patty a bit trickier for dismounted humans.

I only bother with the house when I'm in a combo set up, as leaving the house is a nice choke with a 2/3s chance of making you have to walk back into the choke. The wandering mobs make it usable in a 1v1, but otherwise the house is closer to a DT than a help if pk is more than 1v1 as you have much fewer options to escape compared to the brokengate patty.

The last thing I would recommend is making the area 3s of the brokengate patty with the well a bit larger, and move the big patty from the tunnels there, with an area for him to chase in -- similar to the FD officer on the SE part of doggate zone.
One of the main challenges with stedding is that if LS has FCs, and LS is winning sted....DS's fall back is the cityhead. It's like going from dusty sergeants to agelmar, with nothing in between. This would give a stronger patty of support, and give DS more options than to abandon ship to run and hide inside RK or Akkad/TKD. Something more than a 3-mob patty, though not quite a commie/kajin.

[Kitiara]

Drops her additional 2 copper

I think that stedding is very punishing, in particular to channelers who are already playing at a disadvantage, who then can get swamped by the layout.

I disagree with this sentiment. There are much too few no-channel areas at large in PK areas in the current state of things.
A glass cannon dodge / yew staff set up for maximum defense and zero non-weaving offense SHOULD suffer greatly in no-channel areas -- there are other options for weapons that can melee better, and within the realm of 14 str and 15 str chars to use, such as the pearl handled epee, pale steel longsword, and ring-quillon sword...in addition to the Fblade, Sblade, and jav options for attack set ups.

the dodge set ups get ripped apart when bashed at mobs, but they very well could instead be combo set up and more useful overall set ups (the 15 and 16 str FCs could even go with a 2h staff, spear or polearm and prac bash instead of shield parry!). The current state of non-heavy combo makes these sort of set ups a bit under par in most PK, but they won't go from a damage powerhouse to literally useless with these set ups in places where they can't weave.

One of the larger problems with FCs in the current state of things is this min/max meta where FCs exclusively use full dodge with defensive, low damage weapons and never change mood out of wimpy. The FC response to things like no-channel areas is "well, I guess pk is over, my char can't do anything in there" and I find that quite problematic.

If the MUD wants to see FCs not go full dodge then we need to readdress/adjust 280 max hps. I hate dodge, I would love to go back to combo... but as it stands now even with 243+ DB i still get bashed constantly and go from healthy to batt or beat... and thats not even on DS mobs, that is just 2 or sometimes 1 Trolloc and/or fade. Lowering that db even further to wear combo... and maybe being able to eat 2 bashes that land even more often instead of 1... yea doesn't make sense. Maybe it does for the elite Channies in pk, but not for us normies.

This becomes an even bigger issue if/when the proposed Armor weave changes land.

[Thore]

Drops her additional 2 copper

I think that stedding is very punishing, in particular to channelers who are already playing at a disadvantage, who then can get swamped by the layout.

I disagree with this sentiment. There are much too few no-channel areas at large in PK areas in the current state of things.
A glass cannon dodge / yew staff set up for maximum defense and zero non-weaving offense SHOULD suffer greatly in no-channel areas -- there are other options for weapons that can melee better, and within the realm of 14 str and 15 str chars to use, such as the pearl handled epee, pale steel longsword, and ring-quillon sword...in addition to the Fblade, Sblade, and jav options for attack set ups.

the dodge set ups get ripped apart when bashed at mobs, but they very well could instead be combo set up and more useful overall set ups (the 15 and 16 str FCs could even go with a 2h staff, spear or polearm and prac bash instead of shield parry!). The current state of non-heavy combo makes these sort of set ups a bit under par in most PK, but they won't go from a damage powerhouse to literally useless with these set ups in places where they can't weave.

One of the larger problems with FCs in the current state of things is this min/max meta where FCs exclusively use full dodge with defensive, low damage weapons and never change mood out of wimpy. The FC response to things like no-channel areas is "well, I guess pk is over, my char can't do anything in there" and I find that quite problematic.

If the MUD wants to see FCs not go full dodge then we need to readdress/adjust 280 max hps. I hate dodge, I would love to go back to combo... but as it stands now even with 243+ DB i still get bashed constantly and go from healthy to batt or beat... and thats not even on DS mobs, that is just 2 or sometimes 1 Trolloc and/or fade. Lowering that db even further to wear combo... and maybe being able to eat 2 bashes that land even more often instead of 1... yea doesn't make sense. Maybe it does for the elite Channies in pk, but not for us normies.

This becomes an even bigger issue if/when the proposed Armor weave changes land.

*Cries in normie* I have reverted back to combo for now.

[Rig]

Read some other responses. Decided I really liked some other ideas.

Remove 1s 1e rooms from rottendoor. Leave s and 2s of rottendoor. This leaves a viable dline option 1s of rottendoor, where as it is now, it's pointless garbage.

Would still just remove rottendoor and keep brokengate. If rottendoor doesn't exist and it's just an east room, or even if it doesn't exist at all, it becomes much safer for everyone involved.

[Dimmu]

On the channeler matter with this area, seeing as the stedding is blighted and not a normal one, could it be made a hard to channel place instead of just no-channel? Seems like a coding issue, but it would change the dynamic without completely negating one entire class. I'd rather see no channelers in PK, but I can be magnanimous to!