Something doesn't seem right about warranting rules

[Murg]

I only play DS at the moment but maybe one thing to try would be to adjust where the border stones are? For example, Lancer/Shienar border should probably end somewhere around Tarwin's Gap and maybe DF ancient trees choke. Cairhien and Tear were major powers too, so their borders should be commensurate.

The OOC/IC thing sounds like a parallel discussion. You're never going to "solve" that one, I don't think

[Benito]

What I wondered is - have we stripped clans of their agency by reducing their territories to be too small?

Definitely. From my perspective, Lancer activity took a huge drop after border stones were implemented and, in general, every warrant was met with intervention from immortals. We kept getting all of the dung with none of the autonomy. Besides the very silly location of the n border stone is the problem that quite a few Shienaran mobs don't even attack wanteds. So even in the unlikely event that you can warrant someone in the first place, it still is not going to have much of an affect on their actual ability to hang out in Shienar and Fal Dara.

The worst part is that it all started from a bunch of weenies in Civil Watch who wanted to throw a punch and then cried when they realized they broke their hands punching a wall. Or, putting it a different way, they wanted to believe that "RP" meant they don't have to face consequences for choices. It's the opposite. (Also all of the bullshit around Cosmo's warrant before he got sitebanned - not much distinction between his garbage and CW's.) Right now, warranting rules just enable the most parasitic behavior and miserable forum lawyering. In a game like this, it should be more difficult to break laws than to enforce them, otherwise we end up with the splintered and paranoid version of lightside that largely exists now.

At various points, I've considered creating an alt to solely demonstrate how stupid the laws are. The strategy would be to, say, find Daemon leading a group in the blight and then charge the horses of everyone else in his group. He would not be able to warrant me, which is completely against common sense.

I really think we've created something that overly resembles the wild west. I don't have a true solution. In some of these situations it seems like the clanned people are theoretically supposed to get as wild as the people committing the crimes.

This was the answer I got from Vampa when I looked into it. To some extent, I don't have a problem with it. The main thing for me is, once again, it makes it easier to get away with breaking rules rather than enforcing them.

Lancers would likely settle for our territory having no northern border - just a southern border, but this was already rejected.

Agreed this is the simplest solution for northern stuff while maintaining the current system.

I still think the best solution is leave warranting laws entirely up to the clans. If an individual abuses their authority, the clan steps in to punish them. If an entire clan abuses their authority, other clans can fight them into submission. If warranting is just a way to get away with griefing particular players or harrasing someone, that's when imms would step in. More autonomy, more common sense, more ability to decide as a clan what you actually care about.

[Fuujin]

In light of the thread looking at things making lightside a hassle compared to ds, it does seem odd that the current warrant system provides such immunity to ne'er do wells. Dealing with a potential same side stab in the midst of cross-race pk is a tremendous pain. This is especially hard when the potential backstabber is nominally an ally, and may wait until there's a potentially high enough payoff to strike, otherwise pking normally. Making it difficult or impossible to warrant for such seems to encourage opportunistic sh**tyness, which surely can't be the goal.

In short, I'm less worried about abusive warrants than I am by people taking advantage of strict rules against warranting, and figure that in a word of declining numbers, we should make it easier to act against griefing and angle shooting, not harder.

And while I grew up in a world of "constant vigilance," and expecting that there is always someone out to stab you while xping, I'd hate to be the less experienced player now who is attacked while kiling trees or the like and is told "there's nothing we can do, its a free for all in the woods" when alerting the local justice clan. Same siding may be an inherent part of the game, but if you're going to do it, own the warrant that's likely to come with it.

Couldn't agree more.

I only play DS at the moment but maybe one thing to try would be to adjust where the border stones are? For example, Lancer/Shienar border should probably end somewhere around Tarwin's Gap and maybe DF ancient trees choke. Cairhien and Tear were major powers too, so their borders should be commensurate.

Yup. This goes back to what I said about the gameification of the books. Trying to align game zones to their RP boundaries based on room descriptions is too strict of an interpretation, especially considering certain nations are not equitably represented.

[Detritus]

Be happy you're not a Gaidin, beholden to blue ajah for everything warranting related and every person with no integrity or character seperation has a sedai alt to indulge their dominatrix personalities with.

[Sarinda]

I know the war system and that project was put on pause, but I have always been a fan of clans having agency to effect change in the MUD world. In cases where nations with justice organizations share borders, I think clans should have the ability to use either diplomacy or war to extend or move those borders, and this could be reflected in changes in mob patrols or something else (e.g., special shops added in villages between countries that have discounted costs for certain clans, or that require gold to enter but free to clan members, like the Royal Clothier in Caemlyn).

I also think that treaties can and should be an option to address all of these incidents in which jurisdiction is unclear or outside of borders. For example, the rules that were quoted here state that being attacked anywhere in the MUD can be a warrantable offense. So, anyone who attacks a member of the White Tower, Gaidin, or Tower Guard can be given a Tar Valon warrant. Fal Dara and Tar Valon could create a treaty with a provision that anyone who attacks a Tar Valon/Tower clan member will also receive a reciprocal warrant by Fal Dara for attacking their allies, and that any member of the Shienaran Lancers or a Tower clan could freely hunt them within the borders of either nation. This would give Gray Ajah and diplomatically minded members of the various justice organizations opportunities to dynamically create political influence.

I do wish that the rules and guidelines for banishment versus warrantable offenses were clearer and standardized. I also think that the current laws of each nation with a justice clan, current treaties, and similar information should be posted on a stickied thread somewhere (e.g., Tales of Light forum) so they are easy to locate and reference.

[Reyne]

If you have a problem with the Blue Ajah or the way we handle warrants we are open to hearing about it. I can assure you that people's alts have no bearing on our decisions even if those decisions do not always go the way you would like.

If instead you would like the Gaidin to not have to deal with warrants at all, we can discuss that also.

I will say most of the time our hands are tied by game rules that are above us; yes we can perma-warrant someone but only after sustained/repeated offenses and the imms have final say over that anyway. We can't just throw out a perma-warrant on everyone that attacks you in the wild, refuse to give out pardon quests to people we don't like, etc.

Constructive criticism is helpful, too. Being told that a pardon quest does not feel sufficient and maybe they should do X, Y, or Z instead is great. Being told that a pardon quest "feels meh" is not as much.

(OOC: Detritus: Are you really salty over something that happened two years ago at this point? We had to start a new warranting thread because of all the drama needlessly stirred up. The Blue subforum has its own special thread about that whole sequence events where pretty much every single one of the Blues looked into it and opined on. No one's alts affected our decisions and Jaye Sedai has already been badgered into inactivity after the darkfriend accusation stuff etc.

Consider also that since imms can see the Blue subforum, it would require their collusion against you as well. Not sure what good it does stirring this up again besides pissing everyone involved off again.

beholden to blue ajah for everything warranting related

Because it is not your job. It is the Blue Ajah's. The Gaidin simply have the ability to pardon given that there are a lot more of you than us and it makes the administrative flow happen more easily; IE people get their pardons faster as opposed to waiting around for a Blue to log in.)

[Detritus]

Because it is not your job. It is the Blue Ajah's.

Aureus edit: Removed b/c this is not an appropriate reference for referring to another player on the forums.

Right now, warranting rules just enable the most parasitic behavior and miserable forum lawyering.

Couldn't think how to put it until i read past this gem.
The lawyers know they're defending a criminal half the time but lack the integrity to admit it.

Letter of the law vs spirit of the law vs intentionally abusing the law to advantage.

[Reyne]

Because it is not your job. It is the Blue Ajah's.

Aureus edit: Removed b/c this is not an appropriate reference for referring to another player on the forums.

Right now, warranting rules just enable the most parasitic behavior and miserable forum lawyering.

Couldn't think how to put it until i read past this gem.
The lawyers know they're defending a criminal half the time but lack the integrity to admit it.

Letter of the law vs spirit of the law vs intentionally abusing the law to advantage.

Well I didn't see what you called me but I will assume it was something nasty.

The lawyers know they're defending a criminal half the time but lack the integrity to admit it.

Yeah you said this in the old warrant thread, too. I'm not quite sure what would convince you at this point besides letting you read the Blue subforum but that's not really up to me (nor do I think it is particularly appropriate given your attitude tbh). Would be happy to see you in novice whites giving the Blues a go, though.

OOCly attacking Jaye was demonstrative of a lack of integrity. If you think I'll meekly say OK when you continue this bullying then you have another thing coming.

e:

every person with no integrity or character seperation has a sedai alt to indulge their dominatrix personalities with.

Also all my alts are unclanned and I have never once cared about someone else's alts insofar as dealing with that individual character. *shrug*

[Detritus]

well i wasn't going to reply anything else but Aureus removed something benign and made it seem like something super offensive was said.

The incident you're harping on about i did 2 things that entire lot of you absolutely flipped your lids over and i personally didnt associate either of them with Jaye.

I pointed out that defending a completely intentional multiple repeat murderer would be a darkfriend act.
And i joked something about people on their alts(some of who i completely know who their alts are). Take things in character or out of character however you felt like swinging it.

[Reyne]

well i wasn't going to reply anything else but Aureus removed something benign and made it seem like something super offensive was said.

Fair enough.