Lightside Needs Help

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Thrasymachus
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:36 am

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by Thrasymachus » Wed May 04, 2016 1:13 pm

Elysia wrote:
Thrasymachus wrote:Spoiling them involves leading them around to XP and smobs and pk and setting them up in a kit or with scalps they couldn't get for themselves. Because then when they inevitably lose it, they won't be able to get it back.
That's what I'm saying. A level 3 in abs and burnished isn't going to make much of a difference. The e-axe will, compared to a newbie kit weapon, but he's not getting that back easily when he dies. Meanwhile, the gold axe is actually equal in damage and has higher ob than the e-axe. The only difference is the weight, which comes into play when bashing, which doesn't happen at levels 1-3. Unless you want to bash disengage, but then landing less bashes, not more, is key. In fact, as a statter being dismounted, in abs which takes ob, with an e-axe that has less ob than the gold axe, the statter might actually be at a disadvantage. However, they now believe they need an e-axe or better in order to play the game.
That whole scenario just screams to me that this is a player who lacks knowledge. Their notion that they have to have an eaxe for statting, or even a gold axe really, is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. And people giving newbies eaxes or i&g swords (which incidentally, have the best parry of any "common" 2h lblade in the game, I believe, and that makes them great for solo xping. For statting I prefer high damage weapons), while it doesn't help anything much, it doesn't really hurt either. Because what's really holding that player back is their lack of knowledge, not just about how much damage/ob/weight/etc. weapons have, but about horse loads and eq loads , and xp locations, and smob rooms, and door names, and on and on and on. And while they may say they're upset that they can't get their favorite weapon back easily, (and really, what would it hurt to make eaxes or silver banded mallets or even herons easy enough to acquire that a lvl 20 can find a reliable way to get one?) that's merely representative of the overall problems they're experiencing. It's the issue they have the easiest time pointing to and articulating.

Their real problem is that they don't know, anything really, and more than that, to channel old Donald Rumsfeld, they don't know what they don't know. It's not that there's an actual roadblock to progression in gear or levels or clanning or pking or smobbing, it's that there's a perceived one, because the knowledge required to dispel that perception takes years to acquire in-game, is scattered hither and yon across the most ancient old blogs that can still be found on google, and is often interspersed with outright misinformation that are mostly erroneous guesses made by players nearly as ignorant as they are. Acquiring some of that knowledge on one's own is part of the fun of the game. But when it takes months of playing and researching just to become competent enough to know how incompetent one really is, that's too much. There's enough cool easter eggs to find in this game that the difference between weapons, or gear pieces, or horse mvs, or anything else that's directly relevant to basic playability doesn't need to be among them.

To be fair, I really don't think this lack of knowledge suffered by newish and more casual players is a problem that the imms should try to tackle. You guys have too much on your plates as it is, and you do a great job with it, as far as I'm concerned. More than that, I think you guys really are remarkably responsive to the playerbase at implementing things they suggest, and explaining why some things they suggest aren't doable at the moment. Most, if not all of this knowledge that new and casual players need already exists out there in various forms and various places. Thuvia's doing a lot of good work with the wiki, and I refer to that constantly myself.

But I still reckon that what's really needed is a good, wotmud-dedicated client, that's got all the information a player needs clearly displayed at a glance, from important locations on a map, including doors and smobs, to what gear is being worn and what contributions each piece makes to the overall character's stats. And not to mention all the macros and aliases they'll need to be able to efficiently move around and do things. And not only would something like that make a big difference in overcoming the knowledge gap, but it makes it super easy to have just one place to go and one thing to download to be able to get into the game or get back into the game and have a good foundation from which to begin building the skills and relationships they need to really have fun.

Alayla
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:20 pm

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by Alayla » Wed May 04, 2016 2:16 pm

During our crash I played another mud that had such a client, custom made for that mud. It was pretty helpful. However, it was still a pain to figure out how to download it and make it run right, and once I did get it running, it was incredibly laggy. I quit the game even before ours came back online.

I think any new player is going to have to work the kinks out and familiarize themselves with any client - if they've never mudded before. Mantorok has a post that is stickied for connection tips which includes what clients are free. Most of the help topics on the main clients we use are found in the help section. I doubt we can sticky every one, but maybe Mantorok can edit his post to link to those threads for each client to make it easier to find.

That said I think I see your point, Thrasymachus. Certainly equipping new players with what matters most should be our focus. It's not really a great weapon or decent basic set. People want to come and explore. If we had a button you could push and download one free client and map system, sure... that'd be great, but right now we don't have that.

I generally ask new players:
How did you find our mud?)
Have you ever mudded before?
And most importantly...
Do you have a client that helps you connect to the game?
Does it have a map?

If we can help them get set up with the last two, then tell them about prerolled stats, then point them to Clive... they'll probably be fairly content. I think the value of that goes beyond tossing weapons or gear at them they can't even associate any worth to yet. However I don't want to diminish the impact of that either. Those items are often given with a kind word from a player who tries their best at making the new person feel welcome. And really, if what they take away is that we're friendly here, I'm ok with that because they'll probably want to come back.

Yeri
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 4:26 am

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by Yeri » Wed May 04, 2016 4:38 pm

@Thrasy - I'm not sure a client is necessarily the best answer (at least, for the time it would require) - you'd have to figure out what OSes to support, how you'd handle scripts (both things which divide even the knowledgeable playerbase - we've got people on WinTin, TinTin, Zmud, Cmud, telnet from 1995, and god knows how many others), what commands you'd want to include (channels?) and those sorts of decisions. And probably some of those new players have played MUDs before, have their own preferred client, or may just not prefer (as in Alayla's story) our client, effectively wasting all of that information we gathered and put into a nice client for them.

Knowledge in this game is very hard to pass along - there's a lot of stuff that you just keep in your head and call on when needed, and a new player has to slowly acquire that stuff. Locations, item stats, abbreviations, general PK skills, stuff happening in narrates/channels - there is a LOT and I don't think you can pass on much more than the basic stuff at once. And most of that you only learn you need to learn when it comes up - when you die and find out later there was a horse load nearby, when you see hear someone asking for smobbers and want to know more so you aren't dead weight. It's very much a player-specific thing for what that 'next thing to learn' is. And so I think the best shot lies with the wiki (and Thuvia's superhuman efforts at updating it). If we can honestly say 'if you don't know something, wiki it, ask on chats or narrates, and that should answer it' we're in a good spot for knowledge. At that point, if they're comfortable with the atmosphere of the mud, and have something that can answer their questions, they've probably got enough to get around. Some stuff only comes with experience, like judging a fight or when to flee or where to run. But for all the rest (xp spots, smob spots, horse loads, eq loads, stats on everything) that we can put in the wiki so that new people have an easier time in a digestible format.

The other thing that would help is just being friendly (I really love Alayla's series of questions) - 99% of the time when I start a new game, I don't care about the game aspect of it at first. I care about the people, I care about answering 'is this place worth spending my time on?'.

PS: Plugging JMC (just because it's free and was great for my first client when I started playing MUDs) for the client stuff. Very basic stuff in general, but easy to use/install/etc.

Astolfo
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: Lost in Space!

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by Astolfo » Wed May 04, 2016 5:17 pm

Telnet is still wonderful after all these years.

Thrasymachus
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:36 am

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by Thrasymachus » Wed May 04, 2016 6:26 pm

I think a client is the best answer for things the players can do, particularly those coders who so want to help the game, but can't get into the server side of things for reasons we're all familiar with by now, and which no amount of complaining will change. Obviously, there are some design questions about it that will have to be answered, and there will no doubt be some controversy over some of those decisions. But I also think that there would be enough of a consensus to justify moving forward with it. Scripts that make the information the mud already gives you available in a more intuitive or visual way, like health, mvs, and power bar, instead of the text descriptions, scripts that number horses and receipts, color code enemies and friends, that assign targets, establish macros for keybinding, create custom emotes, or even automatically assign adjacent door names to variables so that they can opened or closed, without having to manually assign an alias first, triggers to eat and drink when called for, maps and the associated scripts that make them work well, tic timers, etc., are all rarely, if ever, really objected to. Automatic bash timers, autowalkers (even though CMUD comes with one built in), and anything that "plays the game for you" are not only often controversial, but also against the rules.

And some of those objections, Yeri, don't make any sense. It's not like creating a client just for Wotmud would make other clients useless. If you prefer your wintin or CMUD or just telnet, it's not like they'd suddenly stop working. The whole idea is that a client is something that players could put together that wouldn't interfere with anything on the server side. So if you're already happy with your client and your map/scripts/setup, nothing needs to change for you. If it helps get new players into the game more easily and learn the mechanics of the game more quickly, and helps returning players get back up to speed, then it's worth it, even if it doesn't solve everybody's problems. No solution ever will solve everybody's problems. That it doesn't doesn't mean it'd be a waste.

Thuvia's work with the wiki is phenomenal, I certainly agree, I use it all the time, and I think every new or casual player ought to have it bookmarked and open right alongside whatever client they're using. How much cooler, and even more useful would it be, though, to have a client where you could click the name on some item or mob or smob, and have it automatically open the page to that thing on the wiki? But regardless of how much cool, helpful and informative stuff a dedicated client could do that nobody's client does now, I think it's undeniable how much a client with a good map, targeting script, keyboard macros, and some basic, universal aliases and triggers, helps make the game more enjoyable and easier to play for new, casual and returning players. The trouble with the client solutions that exist right now is how much trouble it is just to set them up. It's not that the client solutions that exist now are inadequate, they're just either unavailable, or require a comfort with scripting one's own solutions that not everybody, indeed, that very few people have.

In a few years, there's going to be a Wheel of Time television show airing, and as a result, there's going to be people finding this game and trying to play it and figure it out. Not mudders, not pkers, Wheel of Time fans. How much more helpful would it be to have a client solution for them that doesn't require $30 and hours of google searching, scripting and troubleshooting scripts just be able to comfortably get around and have fun? Obviously, there'd also be some pitfalls to avoid. It shouldn't be laggy or too buggy, and it'd have to support at least Windows 7+, and preferably MacOS as well. It'd have to be easy to set up and configure things like the keyboard layout to the individual's preference. And it's something that we don't need Flash to give the go-ahead for. The coders that want to contribute to the game could start this kind of project today.

Yeri
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 4:26 am

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by Yeri » Wed May 04, 2016 7:40 pm

I didn't mean to imply that creating a dedicated wotmud client would make other clients useless - but rather, that if new players don't want to use it - they're people who have a client already, don't like our specific client for some reason (it's possible, as Alayla mentioned) or want to start with another - that the effort to help them is wasted. Creating a client to some extent can't go wrong, the worst that happens is we end up exactly where we are now. But I believe that getting the wiki to be the best it can be - is a more sure way to give new players knowledge without tying it to the way in which they access the game.

For what it's worth, if a client were to be created, I think the simplest way to do it would be to take a free, accessible existing client and create a package of scripts - sort of like Markus did with his map scripts. Many of the sorts of things that you'd want already exist - and most of them exist at least for Zmud, though they're spread across a number of sites - and the challenge would become collecting them and making them easy to use, rather than starting completely from scratch. Clicking a button to wiki something would be cool - but a script that matches /wiki (hi, other people that play GW2) could be just as effective.

grainne
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by grainne » Wed May 04, 2016 7:57 pm

I use tintin, but Mudlet is open source, runs on multiple platforms, and there's a user base on our mud for it. I think an easily accessible getting started guide along with an updated set of scripts and maps (stored in github for source control/versioning) would be an easy place to start.

lilith
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:44 am

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by lilith » Wed May 04, 2016 10:47 pm

Mudlet is excellent. Unfortunately, when I updated to Rebecca (Linux Mint), I was unable to use mudlet 3.00 though I can run earlier versions on my computer.

I switched to Tintin as a result. So far I'm liking it despite my OS lack of support for a feature or two. (no biggie, thank goodness!)

lilith
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:44 am

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by lilith » Wed May 04, 2016 10:49 pm

That's an excellent idea, Yeri. I'll have to put a few Tintin scripts up there for other Tintin users to reuse.

Taziar
Posts: 961
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:28 pm

Re: Lightside Needs Help

Post by Taziar » Thu May 05, 2016 2:23 am

Any of these coders Thrasymachas is talking about reading this thread and can chime in on the scope of a project he is talking about? I only took 3 intro programming classes in college so I can only guess on what it would take to accomplish half of what is being thought up for a dedicated client... Yikes!

Anyone want to brainstorm up a newbie package of scripts and map support for zMUD with a full tutorial explaining how to install and use? I could help with that.

I plan on buying cMUD, researching and converting my script library over to it in the next couple months. Could help with cMUD version while doing that. Prolly help me learn faster.

My zMUD scripts are posted on wotmudarchives.org forums zMUD section, if anyone needs any help shoot me a mail.

Taziar

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