Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

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Fermin
Posts: 358
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:16 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Fermin » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:28 pm

Just to elaborate on why adding 10-15 ob and an extra die is correct (or at least something).

ABS setup should be BETTER then other setups at SOMETHING in regards to PK.

Better at taking damage from mobs and dealing damage to mobs doesn't count.

I don't know how many people remember how frustrating it was to start the game on a warrior and then find out some 20-30 levels in that the other classes are just plain better and there is zero reason to play a warrior.

Now imagine what it feels like to have warriors be great at one thing: combat. That is what berserk attack did. And people flocked to create and play warriors because although they aren't good at much, they are good at fighting (were). Now you once again made warriors basically suck, and the only reason given was a misunderstanding of 'win more'

Give warriors attack, without that they definitely need something to make them better at SOMETHING than other classes...ABS dice and ob helps hunters too but it is better then nothing. If you can't do this, at least give out free class changes for awhile or something. This is just such a big firetruck you to everyone who made warriors.

Thore
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Thore » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:33 pm

isabel wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:15 pm
viewtopic.php?f=74&t=2914

an interesting read in hindsight about 2016 weapon changes hah.

also here (viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1713&p=9712) davor asking for weapon changes and imms saying they're too busy to change Every weapon :lol:
Why even point that out lol Are you not wanting them to work on our game?

Thore
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Thore » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:37 pm

Fermin wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:28 pm
Now imagine what it feels like to have warriors be great at one thing: combat. That is what berserk attack did. And people flocked to create and play warriors because although they aren't good at much, they are good at fighting (were). Now you once again made warriors basically suck, and the only reason given was a misunderstanding of 'win more'

Give warriors attack, without that they definitely need something to make them better at SOMETHING than other classes...ABS dice and ob helps hunters too but it is better then nothing. If you can't do this, at least give out free class changes for awhile or something. This is just such a big firetruck you to everyone who made warriors.
Ha! Outside of the rare 1v1 fight, I'm talking group only, it is largely a winmore mechanic. Nor every time, but often enough that I don't care for the skill, this is coming from a 785 and 800+ year old warrior player....

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Dfi7Snz ... f-win-more

I'd say it's a misunderstanding of someone who (at least somewhat) understands a win more mechanic when he sees one.

Edit: to your last point, it's only a firetruck you if you take it that way. Warriors had their time, and they will again, let's just wait on the Almighty Flash?? Go try an FC peeps and see whatcha think. Or try the class you hate the most!

byrg
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:56 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by byrg » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:33 am

Fermin wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:28 pm
Just to elaborate on why adding 10-15 ob and an extra die is correct (or at least something).

ABS setup should be BETTER then other setups at SOMETHING in regards to PK.

Better at taking damage from mobs and dealing damage to mobs doesn't count.

I don't know how many people remember how frustrating it was to start the game on a warrior and then find out some 20-30 levels in that the other classes are just plain better and there is zero reason to play a warrior.

Now imagine what it feels like to have warriors be great at one thing: combat. That is what berserk attack did. And people flocked to create and play warriors because although they aren't good at much, they are good at fighting (were). Now you once again made warriors basically suck, and the only reason given was a misunderstanding of 'win more'

Give warriors attack, without that they definitely need something to make them better at SOMETHING than other classes...ABS dice and ob helps hunters too but it is better then nothing. If you can't do this, at least give out free class changes for awhile or something. This is just such a big firetruck you to everyone who made warriors.
This. 100%

tekela
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by tekela » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:54 am

Fermin wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:28 pm
ABS setup should be BETTER then other setups at SOMETHING in regards to PK.
There was a time where ABS/E-axe was, individually, better than pretty much any other set up 1 on 1. This was before berserk attack, so I don't buy that a clearly broken mechanism (which was incredibly hard to balance around) was or is the best option for balancing ABS. There are a bunch of things that could use a change.

For warriors: they currently get a +5 OB boost. This could be upped to +10 OB, which is a relatively significant bonus. It's not broken, which is what a lot of warrior players got used to, but it's significant.

For weapons: ABS weapons need to be able to bash, hit, and damage. You can have minor differences, but creating a bunch of different options "for diversity" just means ABSers, individually, will be crappy. You don't need diversity in abs weapons stats. You need something that will function and then the rest is cosmetics.

For ABS: If you up ABS weapons substantially so that *any* ABSer can be an offensive powerhouse, you have room to down abs %. Granted some shortblades are over the top, it won't matter as much if they're getting sat down and hit consistently.

The dynamic that's been a mess for years now because of berserk attack is the ol' tracking and chasing abser. We've had upper limits on what damage/ob/bash could be on absers because of berserk attack while combo kept getting upped, leaving non-attacking absers in a total lurch. With the disparity between the classes much less kinetic, we can actually balance for ABS rather than myopically focusing on warriors.

I disagree with the apparent driving notion that dodge should be winning everything 1 v 1 -- ABS should be doing that because the total lack of defense creates so many more disadvantages when you're outnumbered than dodge/combo. The only thing dodge really needed was a little added survivability (while still being bashable/hittable) and all that really would have taken is reshaping our concept of "acceptable" absorption for "dodge" on certain body pieces (chest and legs) instead of all the roundabout balancing stuff we've done.

Thore
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:06 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Thore » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:00 pm

tekela wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:54 am
Fermin wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:28 pm
ABS setup should be BETTER then other setups at SOMETHING in regards to PK.
There was a time where ABS/E-axe was, individually, better than pretty much any other set up 1 on 1. This was before berserk attack, so I don't buy that a clearly broken mechanism (which was incredibly hard to balance around) was or is the best option for balancing ABS. There are a bunch of things that could use a change.
Wisdom. Heck, a level 29 Tarn w an eaxe was what you had to balance around, not combo or dodge. You could call it the "Tarn check," to see if some setup would win or lose vs him in his abs eaxe. Fermin been playing that long! Think so, but unsure.

isabel
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by isabel » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:54 pm

tekela wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:54 am
Fermin wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:28 pm
ABS setup should be BETTER then other setups at SOMETHING in regards to PK.
There was a time where ABS/E-axe was, individually, better than pretty much any other set up 1 on 1. This was before berserk attack, so I don't buy that a clearly broken mechanism (which was incredibly hard to balance around) was or is the best option for balancing ABS. There are a bunch of things that could use a change.
If it's broken and hard to balance around (not disagreeing) I'm wondering why was zerk attack left in for fades and gaidin then? It's not like they don't have 15 other pretty significant bonuses.

I also feel like you've said really well (as always) how abs could be made more viable, but I don't know if you're addressing Fermin's point about why anyone would play a warrior or why people who've heavily invested in warriors (which has primarily been abs/club - an easy to re-eq but with its share of challenges setup) can't get a class change option. Also wondering whether by this

"If you up ABS weapons substantially so that *any* ABSer can be an offensive powerhouse"

do you mean more damage per hit? maybe not the 2x damage of zerk, but even 1.4-1.5 - wouldn't that be similar to zerk attack 1 round except that now it's risk-free and every round?

All this said I still don't know what warriors bring to the pk table anymore and why we shouldn't just have 3 classes on the game. I think overall sense it it's the best bashing class. But I've been pking recently, and combo lblade hunter has easily bashed as well - the bash on everything is nowhere as consistent as mallet used to be for one. I get that's anecdotal but if a small % boost doesn't feel different I don't know that anyone would want to pick that class over hunter just for that.

tekela
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by tekela » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:00 pm

isabel wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:54 pm
If it's broken and hard to balance around (not disagreeing) I'm wondering why was zerk attack left in for fades and gaidin then? It's not like they don't have 15 other pretty significant bonuses.
The same reason Dreadlords got a 15 DB shirt -- fades don't exist.

(JK, neither should have it.)
I also feel like you've said really well (as always) how abs could be made more viable, but I don't know if you're addressing Fermin's point about why anyone would play a warrior or why people who've heavily invested in warriors (which has primarily been abs/club - an easy to re-eq but with its share of challenges setup) can't get a class change option.
Bluntly, in a scenario where you get +10 OB on warriors and additional damage against humanoids (read: patrols/smobs/master mobs/cities/cityheads), I don't think there's really anything additional required. Either play warriors with those class bonuses or don't and play a ranger and learn how to chase instead of just running to chokes fast. It's sort of the inverse of the option hunters had when it basically became WarriorsAndRoguesMUD a few years ago.
Also wondering whether by this

"If you up ABS weapons substantially so that *any* ABSer can be an offensive powerhouse"

do you mean more damage per hit? maybe not the 2x damage of zerk, but even 1.4-1.5 - wouldn't that be similar to zerk attack 1 round except that now it's risk-free and every round?
Not exactly, but a good amount of the issues with berserk attack was that it happened *between rounds*. I don't think high damage output is a bad thing on a more standardized basis. I also don't think damage is really the issue if ABS weapons are at least 6d6 -- I would say that the last time I played an abser (a month or two ago), OB and bash felt far more off. You *need* weapons like the old old e-axe or more recent silver mallets for ABS to function.

My point in "offensive powerhouse" is that you shouldn't really have to sacrifice on OB/Damage/Bash when you're sacrificing substantially on defense. Absorption could honestly even stay the same given how much damage 6d4 sblades do already.
All this said I still don't know what warriors bring to the pk table anymore and why we shouldn't just have 3 classes on the game. I think overall sense it it's the best bashing class. But I've been pking recently, and combo lblade hunter has easily bashed as well - the bash on everything is nowhere as consistent as mallet used to be for one. I get that's anecdotal but if a small % boost doesn't feel different I don't know that anyone would want to pick that class over hunter just for that.
Honestly, fine with me. This game would have been better off if hunters were still the primary choice with warriors/rogues more specialized/niche choices. I do still think warriors/rogues are disproportionately favorable for DS for a lot of reasons, which is why you probably still saw more LSers going with hunters.

I'm mostly just salty because at some point balance felt pretty close for everything besides dodge, which would have been better balanced with some abs % on chest/legs (like 30% total). But that would have required acknowledging that the only issue was the amount of damage taken unbashed with just two people on you in dodge, but not necessarily the fact that you could be hit unbashed in those situations.

isabel
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by isabel » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:58 pm

tekela wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:00 pm
Bluntly, in a scenario where you get +10 OB on warriors and additional damage against humanoids (read: patrols/smobs/master mobs/cities/cityheads), I don't think there's really anything additional required. Either play warriors with those class bonuses or don't and play a ranger and learn how to chase instead of just running to chokes fast. It's sort of the inverse of the option hunters had when it basically became WarriorsAndRoguesMUD a few years ago.
I think the issue is largely that people with R7/R8 warriors have been pigeonholed into a class bonus that seems tailored to smobbing or cityhead farming more than anything else. Maybe they'll up it to +10 OB and fix the abs weapons, but primarily if they allow all existing hunters and warriors a one-time option to swap classes it would help a lot. I wonder though how many hunter masters would swap to warrior master and how many warrior masters would stay warriors - not any I would think as it is right now except maybe Gaidin players.
Not exactly, but a good amount of the issues with berserk attack was that it happened *between rounds*. I don't think high damage output is a bad thing on a more standardized basis. I also don't think damage is really the issue if ABS weapons are at least 6d6 -- I would say that the last time I played an abser (a month or two ago), OB and bash felt far more off. You *need* weapons like the old old e-axe or more recent silver mallets for ABS to function.

My point in "offensive powerhouse" is that you shouldn't really have to sacrifice on OB/Damage/Bash when you're sacrificing substantially on defense. Absorption could honestly even stay the same given how much damage 6d4 sblades do already.
Yeah 100% agree with you and Davor on this. With old mallet I would at least want to play abs again. Right now there is zero point.

And I actually really like your idea of upping the abs on dodge instead of downing abs weapons - hope imms listen :P

Davor
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

Post by Davor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:29 pm

tekela wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:00 pm
isabel wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:54 pm
If it's broken and hard to balance around (not disagreeing) I'm wondering why was zerk attack left in for fades and gaidin then? It's not like they don't have 15 other pretty significant bonuses.
The same reason Dreadlords got a 15 DB shirt -- fades don't exist.

(JK, neither should have it.)
I also feel like you've said really well (as always) how abs could be made more viable, but I don't know if you're addressing Fermin's point about why anyone would play a warrior or why people who've heavily invested in warriors (which has primarily been abs/club - an easy to re-eq but with its share of challenges setup) can't get a class change option.
Bluntly, in a scenario where you get +10 OB on warriors and additional damage against humanoids (read: patrols/smobs/master mobs/cities/cityheads), I don't think there's really anything additional required. Either play warriors with those class bonuses or don't and play a ranger and learn how to chase instead of just running to chokes fast. It's sort of the inverse of the option hunters had when it basically became WarriorsAndRoguesMUD a few years ago.
Also wondering whether by this

"If you up ABS weapons substantially so that *any* ABSer can be an offensive powerhouse"

do you mean more damage per hit? maybe not the 2x damage of zerk, but even 1.4-1.5 - wouldn't that be similar to zerk attack 1 round except that now it's risk-free and every round?
Not exactly, but a good amount of the issues with berserk attack was that it happened *between rounds*. I don't think high damage output is a bad thing on a more standardized basis. I also don't think damage is really the issue if ABS weapons are at least 6d6 -- I would say that the last time I played an abser (a month or two ago), OB and bash felt far more off. You *need* weapons like the old old e-axe or more recent silver mallets for ABS to function.

My point in "offensive powerhouse" is that you shouldn't really have to sacrifice on OB/Damage/Bash when you're sacrificing substantially on defense. Absorption could honestly even stay the same given how much damage 6d4 sblades do already.
All this said I still don't know what warriors bring to the pk table anymore and why we shouldn't just have 3 classes on the game. I think overall sense it it's the best bashing class. But I've been pking recently, and combo lblade hunter has easily bashed as well - the bash on everything is nowhere as consistent as mallet used to be for one. I get that's anecdotal but if a small % boost doesn't feel different I don't know that anyone would want to pick that class over hunter just for that.
Honestly, fine with me. This game would have been better off if hunters were still the primary choice with warriors/rogues more specialized/niche choices. I do still think warriors/rogues are disproportionately favorable for DS for a lot of reasons, which is why you probably still saw more LSers going with hunters.

I'm mostly just salty because at some point balance felt pretty close for everything besides dodge, which would have been better balanced with some abs % on chest/legs (like 30% total). But that would have required acknowledging that the only issue was the amount of damage taken unbashed with just two people on you in dodge, but not necessarily the fact that you could be hit unbashed in those situations.

Bolded the most important part. Abs needs to be a powerhouse. That is literally the only reason to be abs because you are fucked in every other category. I played abs forever - like most people, until you realize the game is stacked against it. Even the ease of gear attainment has become so skewed. Every single one of my alts are sitting in jcuffs, scabbards, herons, wicked axes, surcoats. Its ridiculous. The rarity of top end dodge/combo used to be a reason to go abs back in the day. Now - not so much. So much has progressively stacked against this once great set up that launched the career of great players such as Kryyg version 1 an 18 12 19 hunter. Even with those stats I played combo as a fade because it was just so much more OP.

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