Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

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Expand view Topic review: Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

Re: Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

by Katherine » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:44 pm

I was just reading about the Mantear royal family's last days on the throne. Gitara Moroso was responsible for both Luc Mantear going to the Blight to seek glory (learning to him merging with Isam to become Slayer) and for Tigraine going to the Aiel Waste to become a Maiden or humanity would suffer (leading to Rand's birth). In neither situation was it apparent that Gitara knew why they needed to go to the Blight and the Waste. However, arguably both situations benefit Ishamael and the shadow. Slayer would later become a powerful servant of Ishamael (as Moridin). Sending Tigraine to the waste which lead to Rand's birth tilted the intelligence scales towards Ishamael. Both cases given Ishamael additional tools or advantages for killing Rand.

There's no indication that Gitara was working for Ishamael and Tamra thought her trustworthy enough to make her the Keeper under her rule. However, her talent for Foretelling may have been influenced by Ishamael who had powerful tools including but not limited to compulsion for manipulating minds including memories and decisions. It might be possible he gave her "visions" that she mistakenly believed to be Foretelling events.

This sounds a little far fetched, but her telling Luc to go to the Blight to seek his glory is kind of a Rosetta stone in my mind. Its a key that suggests that, in hindsight, there was no real good reason for the Wheel to send her a vision to tell Luc to go to the Blight to become Slayer so that he could spend his days hunting wolves (mortal enemies of shadowspawn) and trying to kill Rand. If her Foretelling gave her that weird bit of information, perhaps the advice she gave to Tigraine should be seen as suspect.

Re: Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

by Aira » Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:10 pm

Yeah, and if forcing the birth of the Dragon didn't succed. at worst he would make Randland unfriendly towards Aiel and vice versa.

Re: Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

by Katherine » Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:30 pm

Some other things Ishamael may have influenced since they occurred close to years we know Ishamael was active:

- Toppling of the Compact of Ten Nations by engineering the betrayal and destruction of Manetheren (dividing humanity)
- Helped engineer Guaire Amalasan's rise (dividing humanity)
- The expedition by Luthair Paedrag leading to the founding of the Seanchan and their cultural enslavement of female channelers (weakening Aes Sedai)
- The toppling of Hawkwing's empire (dividing humanity)
- The destruction of the White Tower's credibility due to Bonwhin's actions (weakening Aes Sedai)
- The Children of the Light in NE1024 which was founded to stop women from using the Power (weakening Aes Sedai)
- The Black Ajah (weakening Aes Sedai)
- The return of the Seanchan 1000 years later to force humanity to fight and weaken itself right before the Last Battle (dividing humanity)

Another interesting notion is that Ishamael may have engineered the Aiel War not to destabilize humanity, but rather to hasten Rand's birth. Given some of the things he said during one of his expositional moments in the books, Ishamael may have worked out the prophesies and realized that he had a chance to cause Rand to be born during the window of time when Ishamael was still free. This would allow Rand to be born during Ishamael's active period rather than risking Rand being born during a time when Ishamael was pulled out of the pattern by the seal on the Bore again. If Ishamael already knew he was free permanently, then he could have been setting the conditions for Rand's birth so that he could find Rand before Aes Sedai because he would already know what was going on before the White Tower. Basically stacking the deck in his favor. That would imply that Tam's kindness in taking Rand and raising him as his own was a foil to Ishamael's planning and fits the overall theme that individual choices of normal people are what saves the Great Serpent of time from the Dark One, not just the Dragon Reborn.

Re: Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

by Aira » Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:43 pm

I was re-reading the Eye of the World and came across this:

Loial, in Caemlyn:
'There was a man came to Stedding Shangtai, a little time back. This was not unusual in itself at the time, since a great many refugees had come to the Spine of the World, fleeing what you humans call the Aiel War.'
'He was at the point of death, though there was no wound or mark on him. The Elders thought it might be something Aes Sedai had done. Since as soon as he was within the Stedding, he quickly got well. A few months. One night, he left without a word to anyone, simply sneaked away when the moon was down.'
'Before he left he told a curious tale, which he said he meant to carry to Tar Valon. He said the Dark One intended to blind the Eye of the World and slay the Great Serpent. Kill Time itself.'

Ba'alzamon, after the Eye:
'You tracked me? You slug under a rock, track me? I began the setting of your path the day you were born. A path to lead you to your grave or here. Aiel allowed to flee and one to live. To speak the words that would echo down the years. Jain Farstrider, a hero,' he twisted the word to a sneer, 'whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me.'

Re: Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

by Aira » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:20 pm

Moiraine comments her sister isn't entirely stable either, I think. But it's always easier to topple someone who's already a bit off.

Re: Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

by Kali » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:17 pm

It's not inconceivable. It's known that Ishamael compelled Jain Farstrider around the time of the Aiel War. Jain disappeared into the Blasted Lands around 981 NE. Other Darkfriends and Black Ajah received orders from Ishamael around 982 NE. So he was free shortly thereafter the Aiel War if not before.

Ishamael also boasted of sealing "a doom yet to come" when he convinced Hawkwing to send Luthair across the sea to Seanchan. Would make sense for him to go see them before the events of the Eye of the World.

It would not have been outside of Laman Damodred's personality to do what he did with or without Ishamael's help. Moiraine believed that the Damodred house was tainted somehow, with her forbearers doing some very bad things to grab and hold power. Additionally at least one Damodred, Lord Barthanes, was a Darkfriend. It would not be surprising to find out that other Damodreds were Darkfriends as well, and had become known to Ishamael.

Ishamael's cycle, the Corenne and the Aiel War.

by Aira » Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:38 am

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS










I was wondering if, considering how destabilizing the Aiel War was, Ishamael was telling Laman he was worthy of a great throne. Previously, I had thought that he might've put up Seanchan to start the Corenne and reclaim Hawkwing's lands. I mean, it takes time to build an army, and construct a fleet to make that work.

According to this link, Ishamael is out roughly every 1000 years, for 40 years. He was known to be out during Hawkwing's time and he's known to have meddled 1000 years before that in the Trolloc Wars.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ishamael

Since the WoT calendar has changed a few times, here's that info:

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ishamael

As you can see, Hawkwing dies in FY 994. The Free Year calendar runs on until 1117, then becomes the New Era.

We know that Ishamael was out around 1000 AB when the Trolloc Wars begin. So that's 1000 + whatever since the Breaking.
The After Breaking time runs until 1300-something and is replaced by the Free Years.
At 973 Free Year, Hawkwing gets a new advisor, Jalwin Moerad. So this is 300-something plus 973 years, which totals at at least 1273 years.

After Hawkwing's death, Jalwin Moerad kills three major contestants for the throne, essentially breaking up Hawkwing's empire. He disappears 40 years after he appeared, so around 1003.

The Free Years give way to the New Era at 1117 FY, 1 NE. That's 114 years of FY that Ishamael's gone, then onwards to the new Era. Laman cuts down Avendoraldera between 965, when he ascends the throne, but before 978 NE when the Aiel War starts. That's 1092 years at the most.

Lastly, we know that Ishamael put Jarna Malari to death in 982:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters ... alari.html

It sounds close enough to make it possible that Ishamael is behind Laman's Sin and the Aiel War, which conveniently decimated the Cairhienin army and made them look with suspcion towards any Aiel that might cross the Dragonwall. I suspect that after his activities in Cairhien, or in the mean time, Ishamael was telling Seanchan to reclaim Hawkwing's lost lands. 20 years to build an army and a fleet, as well as scout the Oathbreakers' lands sounds about right, doesn't it?

Lastly, Ba'alzamon was clearly free in Baerlon in book 1. And that still falls within 40 years.

Tigraine vanished due to a Foretelling, which seems legit. Her brother rode into the Blight in 971 to partly become Slayer. Suspicious. The Andoran succession surrounding Morgase? Suspicious. The highly active Black Ajah in New Spring and beyond? Suspicious. Playing hot potato with the Amyrlin Seat, with 3 new Amyrlins in 4 years? Suspicious. This is all in the 970 to 988 NE. That's a lot of upheaval to happen in a short timespan when we know Ishamael was out and about.

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